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The New Brooks Brothers

dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
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Hey, as a long time brooks brothers customer, who has probably owned more brooks brothers than any other brand in my life, I’m just provided what I am observing. They lost me as a customer. Just providing my own insight why. I’m sure there are lots of others like me who left for similar reasons.

your view of brooks brothers might not be what all their customers utilized the brand for. So there are a variety of reasons why they lost this business. Neither one of us is wrong, but rather just highlighting different (and both valid) reasons why it happened.

What I'm saying is that you came into Brooks Brothers well after the decline. I'm not saying this judgementally, as I also first went into their stores well after the decline.

The heyday of Brooks Brothers was from about the early 1900s through 1960s. That's when a lot of the stuff they sold was codified into a classic American look -- sack suit, madras, polo coats, tweeds, Shetland knits, etc.

In 1971, they had 11 stores in major cities, mostly located on the coasts. Only a certain segment of American society shopped at Brooks Brothers at this time, many of them elite, white-collar workers. Business-class professionals. Ivy school graduates, etc. Most people who bought "Ivy Style" clothes bought them from clothiers who looked to Brooks for direction. They didn't even have a Brooks store near them. Brooks Brothers was not accessible to them in either price or geography.

In 1946, Winthrop Holly Brooks, the last member of the Brooks family to own the company, sold Brooks Brothers to a DC-based chain called Garfinckle's. Garfinckle's sold the company to Allied in 1981, and then Allied sold it to someone in 1987 (I can't remember the guy's name, but he held it for about a year). In 1988, Marks & Spencer acquired the company along with an acquisition for a grocery store. M&S wanted to expand both greatly throughout the US.

Many mark this as the start of the decline -- from about the 1990s onwards. This was a period of tremendous expansion and some shifting around for manufacturing. Brooks Brothers expanded its outlets and brought in more foreign manufacturers. TAL, the Asian shirtmaking company, started as a Brooks Brothers manufacturer for outlet goods. They later moved into mainline.

By the time M&S sold Brooks to Retail Brand Alliance (Claudio's company) in 2001, there were 155 stores in US and Japan. This is the period when many StyleForum types would have walked into a Brooks Brothers store, as one was finally open near them.

Today, the company has about 500 locations worldwide -- 250 in the US, about 100 of those are outlets. There are about as many mainline stores as there are outlets. Those outlets are again where many people experience Brooks Brothers.

So it's natural for those shoppers to eventually move on to Bonobos, Suitsupply, Untuckit, Charles Trywhitt, etc. They are deal hunters. (Again, not poo-pooing this demographic, as I'm not a rich, white Manhattan exec who bought BB in the 1970s and don't pretend to be one online.)

The world in which Brooks used to occupy may have moved on. People do not take thier sons into a store and introduce them to their SA. Few people wear suits to work. Many do not care about classic American style -- they want something young, sexy, and often Italian. The internet has made it easier to discount shop. Brooks also has too many store locations to hold on to just a luxury business alone.

Reminds me of a story a J. Press person once told me. I think this person has a very clear eye of what has happened to the market. In the 1950s and '60s, J. Press made a business off selling clothes to students at Harvard and Yale. Business since then has declined. Why? Partly because the people who go to Harvard and Yale aren't the same students in the 1950s. In the '50s, those campuses were largely made up of white males from elite private schools. Today, you have a better gender balance, more international students, and more non-white students. You have kids from different economic backgrounds. Those people did not grow up with the same preconceptions of clothes. They may buy one navy sport coat for special events, but they're not going to wear this stuff exclusively.
 
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clee1982

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They sell a **** ton of accessories like glasses, fragrances, and makeup and skin care. Supposedly the makeup and skincare make up a large portion of their sales.

I can imagine, their margin on lipstick/glass/fragrances got to be amazing (and I suppose they do something right, my wife like TF's lipstick a lot)
 

TheChihuahua

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What I'm saying is that you came into Brooks Brothers well after the decline. I'm not saying this judgementally, as I also first went into their stores well after the decline.

The heyday of Brooks Brothers was from about the early 1900s through 1960s. That's when a lot of the stuff they sold was codified into a classic American look -- sack suit, madras, polo coats, tweeds, Shetland knits, etc.

In 1971, they had 11 stores in major cities, mostly located on the coasts. Only a certain segment of American society shopped at Brooks Brothers at this time, many of them elite, white-collar workers. Business-class professionals. Ivy school graduates, etc. Most people who bought "Ivy Style" clothes bought them from clothiers who looked to Brooks for direction. They didn't even have a Brooks store near them. Brooks Brothers was not accessible to them in either price or geography.

In 1946, Winthrop Holly Brooks, the last member of the Brooks family to own the company, sold Brooks Brothers to a DC-based chain called Garfinckle's. Garfinckle's sold the company to Allied in 1981, and then Allied sold it to someone in 1987 (I can't remember the guy's name, but he held it for about a year). In 1988, Marks & Spencer acquired the company along with an acquisition for a grocery store. M&S wanted to expand both greatly throughout the US.

Many mark this as the start of the decline -- from about the 1990s onwards. This was a period of tremendous expansion and some shifting around for manufacturing. Brooks Brothers expanded its outlets and brought in more foreign manufacturers. TAL, the Asian shirtmaking company, started as a Brooks Brothers manufacturer for outlet goods. They later moved into mainline.

By the time M&S sold Brooks to Retail Brand Alliance (Claudio's company) in 2001, there were 155 stores in US and Japan. This is the period when many StyleForum types would have walked into a Brooks Brothers store, as one was finally open near them.

Today, the company has about 500 locations worldwide -- 250 in the US, about 100 of those are outlets. There are about as many mainline stores as there are outlets. Those outlets are again where many people experience Brooks Brothers.

So it's natural for those shoppers to eventually move on to Bonobos, Suitsupply, Untuckit, Charles Trywhitt, etc. They are deal hunters. (Again, not poo-pooing this demographic, as I'm not a rich, white Manhattan exec who bought BB in the 1970s and don't pretend to be one online.)

The world in which Brooks used to occupy may have moved on. People do not take thier sons into a store and introduce them to their SA. Few people wear suits to work. Many do not care about classic American style -- they want something young, sexy, and often Italian. The internet has made it easier to discount shop. Brooks also has too many store locations to hold on to just a luxury business alone.

Reminds me of a story a J. Press person once told me. I think this person has a very clear eye of what has happened to the market. In the 1950s and '60s, J. Press made a business off selling clothes to students at Harvard and Yale. Business since then has declined. Why? Partly because the people who go to Harvard and Yale aren't the same students in the 1950s. In the '50s, those campuses were largely made up of white males from elite private schools. Today, you have a better gender balance, more international students, and more non-white students. You have kids from different economic backgrounds. Those people did not grow up with the same preconceptions of clothes. They may buy one navy sport coat for special events, but they're not going to wear this stuff exclusively.

fair enough.
I can into brooks brothers in the mid 1990’s. still a quarter century ago though, and perhaps more relevant to their ultimate demise than stuff from over half a century ago.

I’m not disagreeing with what you are saying from the historical decline. But in terms of at least one factor what actually did them in the past decade or so, I think my point stands.
 

FlyingHorker

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I never gave it much thought until now.

Realistically, I think Ralph Lauren is the only clothing brand I can think of that has been "cool" since I was a kid, or not saddled with baggage.

Maybe Tommy Hilfiger or Eddie Bauer as well, but not really sure how they're doing these days.
 

FlyingHorker

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I can't even remember the last time I saw Tommy Hilfiger
Me neither.

I was gifted a Tommy poplin short sleeve BD, in a box check, when I was like 12 from my aunt. I never wore it.

10 years later, I found it in my closet, and realized it had just about the perfect collar roll, locker loop, chest pocket, wide placket.

Narrower spread than what you see these days with the wide birthing hips roll. Nice and tall collar band too.

Still wear it today, one of my favourite shirts.
 

gnatty8

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why go to brooks brothers for a poor fitting dress shirt when you can just go to Spier and Mckay for custom fitting shirts and save some money in the process?

I am not sure I agree here. I haven't bought their shirts in a while, maybe 4 years, but I think they come in four different "fits" these days so achieving a pretty good fit should be possible. Also, have never owned a S&M shirt, but took a flyer and bought one of their merino turtlenecks a couple of winters ago since they made it in a grey I was looking for. Lost it after about a half dozen wears to the seam splitting where the neck meets the body. Didn't bother fixing it. Maybe their shirts are made better?
 

clee1982

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you would think you got enough fit variation, but at least for me personally I kind think BB shirts need another fit between Milano and Soho, Soho is borderline too slim, while Milano could have waist taken in a bit more.
 

FlyingHorker

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I am not sure I agree here. I haven't bought their shirts in a while, maybe 4 years, but I think they come in four different "fits" these days so achieving a pretty good fit should be possible. Also, have never owned a S&M shirt, but took a flyer and bought one of their merino turtlenecks a couple of winters ago since they made it in a grey I was looking for. Lost it after about a half dozen wears to the seam splitting where the neck meets the body. Didn't bother fixing it. Maybe their shirts are made better?
Their OTR shirts are one of their best value in terms of quality, if they fit you.

I've had mostly disastrous results with S&M's MTM program(quality control, shipping times, miscommunication) and switched to Proper Cloth and Ratio Clothing and have been more satisfied.
 

clee1982

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I have S&M's suit (on stuff I would not bought or not pay $1~$2k for it, like, for example brown suit), no complains. I have their neapolitan sports coat on sale, for the price zero complain (I would still tweak the pattern but to try different clothe what not can't beat the value proposition)

edit: never tried their chino, but given the price definitely feel like trying
 

FlyingHorker

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I have S&M's suit (on stuff I would not bought or not pay $1~$2k for it, like, for example brown suit), no complains. I have their neapolitan sports coat on sale, for the price zero complain (I would still tweak the pattern but to try different clothe what not can't beat the value proposition)

edit: never tried their chino, but given the price definitely feel like trying
Their SCs from their higher end fabrics drape ridiculously nice. E. Thomas especially.

Casual chinos also fill my wardrobe, sizing is definitely a crap shoot, but overall great value.
 

clee1982

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zero complain on their fabric, I would tweak their pattern though, but again too much personal preference for RTW to make everyone happy I suppose.
 

dauster

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Watch Formula 1 and you'll see Tommy Hilfiger all over Lewis Hamilton and Mercedes.
do they sell any of this? his TF stuff looks terrible. same can be said about his regulars own fashion choices. Oh my - future, Gunna or Young Thug make better fashion choices than LH and that says a lot :)
 

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