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Exam cheaters...

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Bandwagonesque, Dec 6, 2006.

  1. lawyerdad

    lawyerdad Senior member

    Messages:
    21,820
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    hmm. I'll have to think about your post huntsman. The scenario you proposed is certainly unique in that I've never heard of anyone "accidentally" cheating on an exam, however, it doesnt seem to different than picking up your head to stretch during an exam and seeing someone elses paper fully exposed and taking a peek. Both aren't premeditated and are certainly not as blatant as hiding notes etc. If i were in that situation, I would honestly clear it before i looked at it, if only for fear of somehow being caught and throwing away years of hardwork.

    Lawyerdad, I stand by all of my posts in this thread but will concede that my comment RE: lawyers=cheaters is not a generalization that can be made; at least not 100% of the time, I suppose. RE: Suggestive interview techniques, there are ways to ensure more accurate recall of a situation and be certain to not bias responses. I work with young children who are reported to have been physically and sexually abused and am extremely careful to not insinuate that any event whatsoever occured when questioning a client. I will respond at length to both posts, however, I'm out the door for holiday travel.

    Merry christmas

    MrR

    Merry Christmas, and have a good trip. If you do return to this topic, I'd suggest one consideration is that what makes sense in terms of trying to extract accurate reclall in a clinical setting may be different from what makes sense in an adversarial courtroom setting, given the somewhat different institutional "goals".
     
  2. Liberty Ship

    Liberty Ship Senior member

    Messages:
    138
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    May 9, 2006
    many who have contributed to this thread are doing so from the aspirational moralistic viewpoint that they themselves have never cheated at all, at any point in their lives. These page long, self-righteous diatribes about honor and degrating cheaters of any kind are null unless that person has never done so themselves, to any degree. I understand your point lawyerdad RE: courtroom tactics in that such behavior is allowed, however, it still just doesn't sit well with me. True EWT is often inncaurate, however, incorrect self-recall of a situation is different than an outside party using suggestions to enhance that recollection in their favor. MrR
    First, let me say that I am enjoying this thread, including the opposing posts. It is causing me to crystalize my understanding of the issue. Certainly, when we get into the "real world," and out of academia, those of us, like lawyers, CEO's, and others who find them acting on behalf of others, as their representatives or champions, find ourselves in grey areas sometimes. I am often haunted by the dichotomy between, for example, Robert E. Lee's not wanting to use spys because of the fact he considered spys dishonorable, and the great quote from Ernest Borgnine's character in "The Wild Bunch": "It's not the word you give, but who you give it to!" I will say that the only way to honorably negotiate the often unclear waters that might arise later in life is to be firmly grounded in a black and white system. For an extreme example, Mr. Rogers, is it ok to lie to someone who is holding your family hostage, to tell them you won't contact the police, when, in fact, you fully intend to? Does that disqualify you from future judgements on the issue of honor. Issues of honor often involve what the Japanese call "on," or obligation. It needs to be reciprocal. In the case of an academic honor system, the reciprocity arises from your accepting the benefits of the system whose excellence is dependent on the honor contract. I will say that having lived under strict honor systems in acacemia, I take that predisposition with me into everything I do. I will say that if I have had to make a technical breach since then, it has been after extremely careful consideration and the application of a calculus of honor and morality that many people who have never experienced such a system seem not to be able to understand. The exam cheaters are operating out of pure self interest to compensate for their own shortcomings and to present an _unearned_ capability. And they are doing that at the expense of others. So, reducing the argument back to cheating on exams, at the schools where I attended, all course work including exams, required that the student write an honor pledge on it. Something like, "On my honor, I pledge that I have niether received nor given any unauthorized assistance on this exam." And you had to sign it. Instructors would not accept papers or tests without the Pledge. That bound "the contract." Everyone agreed on the first day of their first year to abide by the Honor Code. So, if some one cheats on an exam and still signs the pledge and you are aware of it, hell yes, turn him in! I can't see the problem with this. You are confronted with a choice, either you are part of a fraternity of honorable people, or a brotherhood of liars, cheaters, and thieves. The system is designed to sort them out and graduate honorable people. Give me a break, who is the real rat in the cheater/turn in the cheater scenario????
     
  3. Condor

    Condor Senior member

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    Oct 1, 2006
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    Basically, we have A LOT of really bright, successful people on this forum.

    So...'exam cheaters' turns into things like oh what if your family was kidnapped, would you lie? What about rules of evidence, is that lying?
    Etc etc.

    Backing up a little, the real question is this
    1. Is taking the work of others and calling it your own, right?
    2. Is taking in notes/whatever into an exam, when others have
    not done so, right?

    This has gotten all twisted around to 'oh yeee brother, does thousest
    cast the first stone, surely not' kinda thing.

    Nobody is perfect. Nobody. I think everyone agrees on that.

    Maybe I just live in a clueless environment. I honestly don't know.

    But I can honestly tell you, as God is my witness, really, it took
    9 years including military service to get my 4 year degree, but I
    did it 100% myself, and 100% honestly, and 100% by my own work.

    But I did do my own work. Most of those around me, did their own work too.

    I'm not even sure where I am going with this post now.

    Maybe the rest of the world didn't, and I'm just clueless.
    I honestly don't know.
     

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