1. And... we're back. You'll notice that all of your images are back as well, as are our beloved emoticons, including the infamous :foo: We have also worked with our server folks and developers to fix the issues that were slowing down the site.

    There is still work to be done - the images in existing sigs are not yet linked, for example, and we are working on a way to get the images to load faster - which will improve the performance of the site, especially on the pages with a ton of images, and we will continue to work diligently on that and keep you updated.

    Cheers,

    Fok on behalf of the entire Styleforum team
    Dismiss Notice

Exam cheaters...

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Bandwagonesque, Dec 6, 2006.

  1. Liberty Ship

    Liberty Ship Senior member

    Messages:
    138
    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    I must say this is a fascinating thread.

    I'm starting to understand how it can be that every minivan and SUV clogging up the roads in the Martix can have a "My Child is an Honor Student" bumper sticker while, at the same time, none of these young scholars can count change at their fast food jobs.
     
  2. redcaimen

    redcaimen Senior member

    Messages:
    7,092
    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Then cry me a river.

    [​IMG] <==== I love this guy.


    This is me at a recent Julliard graduation.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Flyer

    Flyer Member

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Someone was cheating on a test in an ethics class...was it wrong for me to find that ironically funny?

    The best are the people to copy word for word....don't even bother to change the format of it at all.
     
  4. Quirk

    Quirk Senior member

    Messages:
    2,581
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2006
    But here at my university, especially when I'm taking some bullshit sociology course or whatever, if someone is looking off my test, I really couldn't care less. In fact, since I have perfect pitch, when I sit down for the ear training exams, at least 3 people who know me will sit within view of my page. I don't turn them in because A) I am no better B) I know that they're highly capable people who could use a break every now and then, just like how I could. Some of them are in fact super talented and by virtue of them practicing all the time, don't have the time to get good at notating Webern. So, for me, it logically follows that the world is a better place with a talented cellist or whatever, than some guy who has to redo a year or whatever of education, stalling his career, because someone turned him in for cheating on a stupid little exam.


    C'mon, if a guy performs a brilliant audition, is he really going to be disqualified because he got an honest C in music theory?
     
  5. Violinist

    Violinist Senior member

    Messages:
    1,907
    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    C'mon, if a guy performs a brilliant audition, is he really going to be disqualified because he got an honest C in music theory?

    No, but when you consider all the classes you have to take at conservatories these days, they become a major nuisance if you need to practice 5-8 hours, plus about 2 hours of chamber, and usually 3 hours of orchestra. Do the math.

    My roomate read this (he comes on here to buy clothes), and just told me to drop it. What he says is true though... the only people who ever cared about cheating were big nerds who had little more to offer than their grades, and are therefore incredibly threatened when someone else can get the same grades by cheating. At the end of the day, someone who cheats on their bar exam or whatever will definately be exposed as a sub par lawyer, and you cannot cheat in the practical medical exams.

    I guess this is hard to explain to people for whom books are kind of the only thing they've ever studied, but if you're into an instrument or a sport, something that takes a different type of skillset than locking yourself in a room and reading, then you start to get very annoyed by having to study something which hardly relates to what you're doing. I love to study philosophy, literature, history etc... because it furthers my understanding of this "human experience". Music theory, which is for a tennis player like, taking a physics course or learning why the color of the ball is green, is at a certain point, completely useless and if someone cheated to not have to devote time to it, then they're all the better. I remember in 1st year counterpoint, I spent 7 hours every Sunday on doing my assignment. What a total waste of time. I did that for a few years.
     
  6. drizzt3117

    drizzt3117 Senior member

    Messages:
    13,141
    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2004
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    It seems that schools are cracking down more on plagarism now than they have been in the past, but perhaps cheating is more rampant on multiple choice and other examinations? I know more test forms etc are being employed to help preclude this. The advent of www.turnitin.com etc has made plagarism difficult on papers. Prior to this, I imagine an enormous amount of plagarism was taking place on written assignments, while it is quite a bit more difficult to do now.
     
  7. Violinist

    Violinist Senior member

    Messages:
    1,907
    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    It seems that schools are cracking down more on plagarism now than they have been in the past, but perhaps cheating is more rampant on multiple choice and other examinations? I know more test forms etc are being employed to help preclude this. The advent of www.turnitin.com etc has made plagarism difficult on papers. Prior to this, I imagine an enormous amount of plagarism was taking place on written assignments, while it is quite a bit more difficult to do now.

    Funny that you mention it. When this site came out, it was actually people here at McGill University who blew the whistle. This campus "activitist" who I won't name refused to turn his paper in because it gets compiled in some big database. I remember him having some ethical leg to stand on but I also remember thinking he's just trying to cause trouble. It caused this big hoopla and something happened, which I also don't remember because I never cared.

    In any case, I think it would be pretty easy to plagarize in a large class where different papers are often marked by different TAs, some by the prof. Turnitin.com propably works wonders in sorting that out.
     
  8. DNW

    DNW Senior member

    Messages:
    10,526
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    Location:
    Recession, Baby
    Funny that you mention it. When this site came out, it was actually people here at McGill University who blew the whistle. This campus "activitist" who I won't name refused to turn his paper in because it gets compiled in some big database. I remember him having some ethical leg to stand on but I also remember thinking he's just trying to cause trouble. It caused this big hoopla and something happened, which I also don't remember because I never cared. In any case, I think it would be pretty easy to plagarize in a large class where different papers are often marked by different TAs, some by the prof. Turnitin.com propably works wonders in sorting that out.
    We used turnitin for one semester at law school. I haven't seen it since. It fucks up the format of your paper, which is pretty important when you're writing legal briefs. Back in undergrad, my school developed a proprietary heuristics software that compared exams among each other, as well as those within its historical database. I'm not sure how well it worked, but the deterrent factor was pretty high. Nobody I knew even dared to look at another person's assignment for fear that some ideas will cross over and cause their papers to look alike.
     
  9. mano

    mano Senior member

    Messages:
    450
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2004

    I'm sure that those on their soapbox will degrade me for my belief's, however, i'm sure they themselves engage in such behavior, at least to some degree, regularly, without a second thought.

    MrR



    They're not on a soapbox, they're simply standing on solid ground.

    You, however, have dug yourself into such a hole that is appears to you that they're standing above you.
     
  10. dkzzzz

    dkzzzz Senior member

    Messages:
    5,360
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2006
    Location:
    Hoboken
    Generally speaking, Canadian schools, or at least the ones I've attended are hardly of the calibre of your US schools. Maybe people here just don't give a rats ass? [​IMG] Or maybe because it's just an arts degree?
    Oh pfff art degree? You should have said it a long time ago...[​IMG]))
    Cheating is an art form in many countries, so it is perfectly appropriate for an art school degree or a law scholl for that matter.
     
  11. Violinist

    Violinist Senior member

    Messages:
    1,907
    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Oh pfff art degree? You should have said it a long time ago...[​IMG]))
    Cheating is an art form in many countries, so it is perfectly appropriate for an art school degree or a law scholl for that matter.


    Well... there are definately some Canadian schools which rank fairly well, like my school McGill, and others like Queens.

    In fact, one of those big survey things puts McGill at 14th in North America.

    I don't know if you could say there's more cheating north or south of the border though, that would be hard to say with authority.
     
  12. quid

    quid Senior member

    Messages:
    109
    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2006
    Somewhere during this thread the distinction was lost between agreeing that cheating is ok and thinking that it is one's responsibility to report it. I absolutely do not agree with cheating, but I also don't think its my responsibility to actively police others.

    I'm sure that those on their soapbox will degrade me for my belief's, however, i'm sure they themselves engage in such behavior, at least to some degree, regularly, without a second thought.

    MrR

    (I'm sorry, but I can't possibly take a lawyers lecture RE: cheating seriously)


    i agree with this entirely.

    there was however one time where i reported a person that was cheating. the classroom was stadium style probably 300 sutdents. The test was finishing up, and i look about 5 seats down in my row and 2 girls have their notebooks on the floor flipping through pages. So when i turned my exam in i just said you may want to take a walk through the rows, and i left the room. i dont know what if anything happened to those girls, and i wouldnt have said anything if it wasnt so blatant. a few postits or a note or 2 on your hand ok, at least youre being discrete, but your fucking notebook on the floor, c'mon. they were asking for it.
     
  13. Condor

    Condor Senior member

    Messages:
    103
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    Where I went to school, (NC), for YEARS, I mean...at least 15 years
    ago, every computer program writen by every student, in every class,
    for the past 5 years was sent to some super computer at berkley.
    This thing had artificial intelligence and would report as a percentage
    the percentage likelyness that you copied even one line of code
    from somebody. I dont mean change the variables, this thing, it checked
    the INTENT or something. Then, for possible cheaters it was reported,
    and reviewed by a human. If it looked like you cheated, you go to the
    trial. If convicted once, you got a -100 for that program, not a zero.
    It guarenteed you got a D. if convicted twice, you were permanently
    expelled from the university. And you didn't get help or attention.
    There were 200+ people per class, and you had to get it on your own.

    In addition, LOTS of ppl, including about everyone, has spent
    "a sunday" studying something with no relevance.

    I've spent many an hour on psycology, managing leisure alternatives,
    astronomy and the like. Freakin jokes. But you have to do it to
    get the degree. To have what others have.
    I've spent many many an hour, on things like thermodynamics,
    materials science, and the like. "Technical" electives that I've
    never seen again, never used, never needed. I did it to get the
    degree. To have what others have.

    It still sounds like your argument is "Its ok to cheat, if there are a lot
    of ppl in the class, or, if the class isnt relevant to what i will really
    be doing. Or, the work isnt relevant to my natural talent. " Or, insert
    X if you want, but to basically have Y, that others have, that I dont have,
    but want?

    Why did I have to take FOUR PE classes, when I did two years
    in the FREAKIN INFANTRY? Waste of time? Actually not.
    I learned how to golf and raquetball lol. Waste of money, for somebody
    paying for it 100% themselves would have liked to get the pass on it.
    yes. Why? Because The Man said I have to do the work, to get the
    degree. He never said anything about my natural talents being
    golf or raquetball, and I can assure you, thery were not [​IMG]

    I agree. Nobody here is on a soapbox. But, I lurked a long time on this site,
    been a participating member a while. I am very sure, the really successful people here....they did the work.

    And dont get me wrong - if somebody is a piano vituoso play by ear perfect person - pursue the dream. But don't blur the line between that and a defined set of criteria to get X (piece of paper diploma, etc) and what it takes to get X (hard work, sundays sacrified, vs. cheating)

    After thinking about it a long time, more than 2, as many as 4-5 issues have been blurred together in this thread.

    I ask you to think about that.
     
  14. mano

    mano Senior member

    Messages:
    450
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2004
    In addition, LOTS of ppl, including about everyone, has spent
    "a sunday" studying something with no relevance.

    I've spent many an hour on psycology, managing leisure alternatives,
    astronomy and the like. Freakin jokes. But you have to do it to
    get the degree. To have what others have.
    I've spent many many an hour, on things like thermodynamics,
    materials science, and the like. "Technical" electives that I've
    never seen again, never used, never needed. I did it to get the
    degree. To have what others have.

    It still sounds like your argument is "Its ok to cheat, if there are a lot
    of ppl in the class, or, if the class isnt relevant to what i will really
    be doing. Or, the work isnt relevant to my natural talent. " Or, insert
    X if you want, but to basically have Y, that others have, that I dont have,
    but want?


    I ask you to think about that.


    Amen!

    Success in life is showing up regularly, doing the work well and reaping the reward. All successful students tolerated lousy instructors, boring lectures, irrelevant assignments and unfair tests. In the end, you have the degree, along with the integrity and discipline to know you can handle the crap that life sometimes hands you.

    Does the system need changing? Probably. But it's not likely to change because the schools realize, "so many people are cheating, maybe we're demanding too much of them."

    Re: the people who report cheaters, they have to accept the consequences of their actions, as well. Whistle-blowers in business and government are largely ignored and then ostracized when taken seriously. They often lose their jobs and have difficulty finding another. Many look back and regret their decision, indicating they wouldn't do it again if they knew how it would turn out. Students who report cheaters are considered tattle-tales as the responses on this thread bear out.
     
  15. Dakota rube

    Dakota rube Senior member

    Messages:
    14,501
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2005
    Location:
    A bit better than yesterday, all day vomiting for
    Re: the people who report cheaters, they have to accept the consequences of their actions, as well. Whistle-blowers in business and government are largely ignored and then ostracized when taken seriously. They often lose their jobs and have difficulty finding another. Many look back and regret their decision, indicating they wouldn't do it again if they knew how it would turn out. Students who report cheaters are considered tattle-tales as the responses on this thread bear out.
    And this makes me weep for society.
     
  16. lawyerdad

    lawyerdad Senior member

    Messages:
    21,819
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    Well, that's because you evidently assume everyone is as lacking in integrity as you. Perhaps you could tell us what saintly, self-abnegating vocation you follow

    that's wrong man, and you distorted this whole discussion.

    Even your own comment is contratictory to itself.

    I'm trying not to hit on you hard, but those 2 statements are not right.

    How so?
    I think your comment is directed to my post, although I'm not sure because of the way your post is structured.
    If so, I don't get what you're saying. What did I distort? Mr. Rogers made the blanket suggestion that everyone here cheats or does something similar. I responded to that. He then made a fairly infantile remark implying that my profession as a lawyer disqualifies me from having an opinion about cheating (the implication being that lawyers by definition are unusually lacking in ethics or honesty). I, in turn, asked him to identify the moral high ground from which he purported to be speaking.
    I honestly don't see how those two comments are contradictory, unless you read the obvious irony out of my characterization of his hypothetical vocation.
     
  17. lawyerdad

    lawyerdad Senior member

    Messages:
    21,819
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    i agree with this entirely.

    there was however one time where i reported a person that was cheating. the classroom was stadium style probably 300 sutdents. The test was finishing up, and i look about 5 seats down in my row and 2 girls have their notebooks on the floor flipping through pages. So when i turned my exam in i just said you may want to take a walk through the rows, and i left the room. i dont know what if anything happened to those girls, and i wouldnt have said anything if it wasnt so blatant. a few postits or a note or 2 on your hand ok, at least youre being discrete, but your fucking notebook on the floor, c'mon. they were asking for it.

    So then it's really an aesthetic issue, yes? Inept or flagrant cheaters should be reported, but not those with a bit more subtlety or panache?
     
  18. Condor

    Condor Senior member

    Messages:
    103
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    I am absolutely sure none of my comments were directed at lawyerdad....
     
  19. lawyerdad

    lawyerdad Senior member

    Messages:
    21,819
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    I am absolutely sure none of my comments were directed at lawyerdad....
    Ok, then I misunderstood based on the quoting. As Gilda Radner used to say:
    "Never mind". [​IMG]
     
  20. Liberty Ship

    Liberty Ship Senior member

    Messages:
    138
    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Amen!

    Success in life is showing up regularly, doing the work well and reaping the reward. All successful students tolerated lousy instructors, boring lectures, irrelevant assignments and unfair tests. In the end, you have the degree, along with the integrity and discipline to know you can handle the crap that life sometimes hands you.

    Does the system need changing? Probably. But it's not likely to change because the schools realize, "so many people are cheating, maybe we're demanding too much of them."

    Re: the people who report cheaters, they have to accept the consequences of their actions, as well. Whistle-blowers in business and government are largely ignored and then ostracized when taken seriously. They often lose their jobs and have difficulty finding another. Many look back and regret their decision, indicating they wouldn't do it again if they knew how it would turn out. Students who report cheaters are considered tattle-tales as the responses on this thread bear out.



    Here's what a lot of people like you, who have never lived under a "single sanction, turn in violators" honor system don't understand. When someone cheats, steals or lies within the boundaries of the System, they are putting at risk anyone who might become aware of the transgression.

    To put it simply, by consciously deciding to violate the Honor Code, someone has decided to put everyone else at risk. By "risk" I mean anyone who might become aware of their trangresssion is faced with a horrible choice: Turn in the violator, or risk being turned in yourself. Personally, I have a great degree of contempt for anyone who, out of narrow self interest, sees fit to put me or anyone else in that position.

    I am grateful that no one in my circle of contacts ever violated the Honor Code to my knowledge. If they had, I would have been faced with a soul-searching decision. I hope I would have done the right thing and asked him to turn himself in. (At which time, by the way, he could have still requested an Honor Trial, presented his case, and still have been acquitted.) If he had not been willing to do that, I would have had to turn him in. It would have been messey and painful and possibly personally damaging and embarassing . And, still, he could have requested an Honor Trial, presented his case, and been acquitted. Scary and dangerous, yes; just like the "real world" we were supposedly being prepared for.

    But you know what? The system yielded a student body where, if there was cheating, no one knew about about it. And, honestly, I believe very few, hardly any, of us cheated. And the academic standards were, and are to this day, very high. I read here about classroom envoronments where cheating seems rapmant and people aren't inclined to do anyting about it. Cheating is like inflation. It's like a tax on your grades, with the benefit defaulting to those who did not earn it.
     

Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by