Continue with Cesare Attolini or going for Bespoke?

[miani]

First of all I want to thank you guys for all the incredible posts and insights on this forum. I'm an avid reader and always enjoy the conversations between you guys a lot. This will be my first post so please bear with me ;-)

The epitome of my wardrobe are the suits and jackets from Cesare Attolini. I'm wearing them for many years with a lot of passion but nowadays I get more and more doubts to keep buying them. First of all the mtm prices for a suit are very expensive at the moment (around €5000, while I used to pay €3000-€3500 5-10 years ago) and they keep rising. Secondly, because I'm reading the posts on this forum and PS about bespoke tailoring, it seems that mtm can never reach the heights of bespoke. I'm 201cm tall, 95kg so I can definitely see the benefit for that.

So if you consider both points, I have the feeling that for my budget and my willingness to travel to Italy, I can get a better product with the added benefit of an interesting experience to meet the tailors and learn more about this world. I have a few questions to you:
- where does Attolini stands exactly if you compare them with bespoke tailors? Obviously you can't compare the fits as bespoke will always win that battle, but more about the quality in general.
- where should I start? With an entry level tailor that costs 1/3 of Attolini to see the difference between them? Or going to the serious names with glorious reputations?

I'm looking at Ciardi, Panico and Eduardo de Simone (at their price point I'm really curious to see what you will get for that) but I'm happy to hear other recommendations. The only style I truly dislike is that of Rubinacci. The Ciardi suits on PS are my favorite so far, but Simon is not as tall as me.

Would be great to hear your thoughts and recommendations!

 

[aristoi bcn]

With Attolini you get a very high level of style, finishing and luxury and exclusive cloth. Attolini, unlike Kiton (I don't know why), is praised even by Neapolitan tailors. And also reliability in cut. Neapolitan tailors usually do not use paper patterns and adjust the basic measurements taken for the client during the fittings.

If budget is not a problem, I would try three big names in Neapolitan tailoring: Panico, Ciardi and Solito. But you cannot go wrong with less known tailors like Zizolfi, Dalcuore or one of the Pirozzi.

If you travel to Naples to have suits made, I guess time is more of a concern than money. Go with the tailor you like, save for Rubinacci, the rest will be way cheaper than Attolini.

 

[shoesforever]

I tend to agree more with @dieworkwear and his point of view. Unless you have a particular difficult bodytype that an advanced mtm program like Cesare Attolini can't take care of, then bespoke may be for you. Learning about bespoke and mtm and so on, can get you confused. I think the lines of bespoke and higher end mtm are a lot more blurred than people would like to admit. Another point would be the way the garments are assembled and the workmanship. In a factory like Cesare Attolini the worker's will tend to be a lot more specialized to make the making process more effective. So a worker who makes shoulders all day, will for example be better than a bespoke maker who makes a whole suit and won't get anywhere near the same numbers as the beforementioned(quote from Jeffery Didduch). Keep in mind though that quantity is not the same as quality normally, but here we are already looking at top workmanship. Often times Neapolitan makers will be critized for having a bit sloppy finishing. This is not the case for the likes of Cesare Attolini. I don't have any garments from either one, but from the garments I've handles, I've found Attolini's finishing to be impeccable. It's a bit more expensive than a lot of bespoke makers in Naples though, but I'm really not sure how much better the fit will be with bepsoke, seeing that you've tried a lot of Attolini already and likely made the fit better with each make. The journey and process of bespoke itself is another chapter in by itself.

Can You Spot Bespoke? — Die, Workwear!

I was recently having a discussion with my friend Voxsartoria about whether there’s a practical difference between bespoke and high-end ready-to-wear. He thinks the difference is not only night-and-day but claims he can tell when someone is wearing something that was made for them. I don’t...

dieworkwear.com

 

[miani]

With Attolini you get a very high level of style, finishing and luxury and exclusive cloth. Attolini, unlike Kiton (I don't know why), is praised even by Neapolitan tailors. And also reliability in cut. Neapolitan tailors usually do not use paper patterns and adjust the basic measurements taken for the client during the fittings.

If budget is not a problem, I would try three big names in Neapolitan tailoring: Panico, Ciardi and Solito. But you cannot go wrong with less known tailors like Zizolfi, Dalcuore or one of the Pirozzi.

If you travel to Naples to have suits made, I guess time is more of a concern than money. Go with the tailor you like, save for Rubinacci, the rest will be way cheaper than Attolini.

Good to hear that Attolini has such a good reputation! Budget and time is not a problem, so I will probably go to Napoli. Of the six tailors you mention, what’s your favorite and why?

 

[miani]

I tend to agree more with @dieworkwear and his point of view. Unless you have a particular difficult bodytype that an advanced mtm program like Cesare Attolini can't take care of, then bespoke may be for you. Learning about bespoke and mtm and so on, can get you confused. I think the lines of bespoke and higher end mtm are a lot more blurred than people would like to admit. Another point would be the way the garments are assembled and the workmanship. In a factory like Cesare Attolini the worker's will tend to be a lot more specialized to make the making process more effective. So a worker who makes shoulders all day, will for example be better than a bespoke maker who makes a whole suit and won't get anywhere near the same numbers as the beforementioned(quote from Jeffery Didduch). Keep in mind though that quantity is not the same as quality normally, but here we are already looking at top workmanship. Often times Neapolitan makers will be critized for having a bit sloppy finishing. This is not the case for the likes of Cesare Attolini. I don't have any garments from either one, but from the garments I've handles, I've found Attolini's finishing to be impeccable. It's a bit more expensive than a lot of bespoke makers in Naples though, but I'm really not sure how much better the fit will be with bepsoke, seeing that you've tried a lot of Attolini already and likely made the fit better with each make. The journey and process of bespoke itself is another chapter in by itself.

Can You Spot Bespoke? — Die, Workwear!

I was recently having a discussion with my friend Voxsartoria about whether there’s a practical difference between bespoke and high-end ready-to-wear. He thinks the difference is not only night-and-day but claims he can tell when someone is wearing something that was made for them. I don’t...

dieworkwear.com

Thank you for your vision. I never realised that Attolini have cristalised every single aspect of tailoring to perfection with their method. You’re right the fit got better with each make, but on my shoulder and sleevehole it’s still too tight or otherwise to wide. With the rest of my body I don’t have problems at all. As the prices are rising, I’m trying to find a bespoke alternatieve that is on par with Attolini. I know it’s a different chapter but which tailors do you recommend?

 

[dieworkwear]

Bespoke can be good so long as you realize there are a lot of potential pitfalls. Don't assume that bespoke means good, even if it's from a good tailor.

 

[aristoi bcn]

Good to hear that Attolini has such a good reputation! Budget and time is not a problem, so I will probably go to Napoli. Of the six tailors you mention, what’s your favorite and why?

I haven't tried any of them (I use another tailor, a one-man operation that only speaks Italian and has no email, hence I didn't suggest him as getting in touch with him can be tricky) but I really like the cut of Panico and Solito when they cut a traditional jacket (they also have RTW and MTM operations that follow a too modern cut imo).

 

[comrade]

You might want to check Simon Crompton's blog. It is not easy (for me) to navigate,
but Simon has had clothing made by most of the leading Neapolitan tailors and he
offers relatively in depth discussions on style and fit:

Permanent Style

Brands

www.permanentstyle.com

 

[miani]

You might want to check Simon Crompton's blog. It is not easy (for me) to navigate,
but Simon has had clothing made by most of the leading Neapolitan tailors and he
offers relatively in depth discussions on style and fit:

Permanent Style

Brands

www.permanentstyle.com

I checked his blog extensively but it got me even more confused in the whole Attolini vs bespoke debate as Simon isn't that enthusiastic about Attolini as he basically says they focus foremost on details you can see with your eyes rather than the inside, fit, etc.

I tried to read as many of articles of Simon and Permanentstyle on the bespoke vs mtm vs rtw debate, but I can't find that much information of the quality of Attolini in comparison with bespoke that will cost much less, and if the price increases of Attolini are justified. In that regard I'm very happy with the responses of @aristoi bcn,@dieworkwear and @shoesforever

 

[dieworkwear]

I tried to read as many of articles of Simon and Permanentstyle on the bespoke vs mtm vs rtw debate, but I can't find that much information of the quality of Attolini in comparison with bespoke that will cost much less, and if the price increases of Attolini are justified.

I wouldn't get too hung up on quality. It's hard for a consumer to judge the quality of a garment. To the degree that quality matters, it'll be in how the garment looks on you, which is something you can judge directly, but others can't abstract for you. In other words, no one on here can tell you how a garment looks on you without seeing it on you. If you post a photo of yourself in the suit, you can get some feedback. Otherwise, your best bet to judging quality is to just put on the garment and see how it looks and feels.

The difficult thing about bespoke tailoring is that you can't put things back on the rack if you don't like it. Even if the garment fits well -- and many, many bespoke garments don't fit well -- you may not like the style or silhouette. Also, just because someone else had a good experience at a tailoring shop doesn't mean you will.

I think it's better to think of bespoke tailoring in two ways:

1. Forget the notions of quality. Understand that bespoke is just about cutting a garment from scratch (sometimes adjusted from a block pattern). This comes with as many potential upsides as it does downsides. The internet is full of examples of bespoke diasters. I think they outnumber the good stories, frankly.

2. The other way is to think of bespoke tailoring shops like trying a restaurant. Sometimes you hear a restaurant is good, but you won't know if you like it until you go there yourself. Reputation matters some, but it's not indicative of everything. It does help to know a bit about the house style, as it's often difficult to get a tailor to deviate too much from what they're used to cutting.

I use Solito and think he does good work. Some friends of mine use Panico, Paone, Iorio, Zizolfi, and Pirozzi. I believe the original head cutter, the father at Ciardi, has passed away. Always best to think of these things in terms of cutters, rather than tailoring houses. If you go somewhere, go for the cutter.

 

[Despos]

I wouldn't get too hung up on quality. It's hard for a consumer to judge the quality of a garment. To the degree that quality matters, it'll be in how the garment looks on you, which is something you can judge directly, but others can't abstract for you. In other words, no one on here can tell you how a garment looks on you without seeing it on you. If you post a photo of yourself in the suit, you can get some feedback. Otherwise, your best bet to judging quality is to just put on the garment and see how it looks and feels.

The difficult thing about bespoke tailoring is that you can't put things back on the rack if you don't like it. Even if the garment fits well -- and many, many bespoke garments don't fit well -- you may not like the style or silhouette. Also, just because someone else had a good experience at a tailoring shop doesn't mean you will.

I think it's better to think of bespoke tailoring in two ways:

1. Forget the notions of quality. Understand that bespoke is just about cutting a garment from scratch (sometimes adjusted from a block pattern). This comes with as many potential upsides as it does downsides. The internet is full of examples of bespoke diasters. I think they outnumber the good stories, frankly.

2. The other way is to think of bespoke tailoring shops like trying a restaurant. Sometimes you hear a restaurant is good, but you won't know if you like it until you go there yourself. Reputation matters some, but it's not indicative of everything. It does help to know a bit about the house style, as it's often difficult to get a tailor to deviate too much from what they're used to cutting.

I use Solito and think he does good work. Some friends of mine use Panico, Paone, Iorio, Zizolfi, and Pirozzi. I believe the original head cutter, the father at Ciardi, has passed away. Always best to think of these things in terms of cutters, rather than tailoring houses. If you go somewhere, go for the cutter.

So many things I can’t agree with here!

 

[dieworkwear]

So many things I can’t agree with here!

Like what?

 

[Despos]

Like what?

In reverse order of your points.
My points are generalized and reductionist but that’s the only way I can communicate this.

Food/restaurant analogy.
RTW is like fast food. It’s waiting for you. It’s the same every time. You have no actual input of what you get.
MTM is like trying a restaurant. You choose from the menu. This is the block pattern. The template is set but you can adjust some elements of fit and styling to your preferences within limits set by the maker. You can only order the dish as it is conceived by the kitchen but you can get extra cheese or no cheese. Maybe sub cole slaw for fries. Depends if the kitchen values efficiency of execution or giving the client what he wants. Lack of choice in MTM factories is mainly to avoid bottle necks created by changes from the norm.
The food comes out of the kitchen made by a staff of cooks who do different stages of prep or cooking according to their experience and abilities. MTM is made in a factory by a staff of sewers who do the operations they are trained to do.

Custom (do not think bespoke is an appropriate descriptor) is like hiring a personal chef. He/she has the required skills but makes the food you want to eat according to your tastes. What do you consider spicy? How do you want the steak cooked? Do you have any allergies?
Personal chef is making food only for you and only has to please you, same as a custom tailor.

“Understand that bespoke is just about cutting a garment from scratch”
This doesn’t mean anything. Regardless of the method, block, paper pattern or creating a pattern on the cloth with a
tape measure and chalk; it’s the modification/adjustments of the base pattern to align the cutting with the clients physique. This is the value of a competent tailor who can read your physical characteristics and understands how to apply the adjustments in the cutting. This is very personal and distinct to each individual. In custom work the smallest details can get the proper attention. I tell new clients, “I know how to make a suit but I have to learn how to make a suit for you.” Every client is different. Custom work allows optimal personalization in a way MTM or RTW do not. Have a handful of clients that require adjustments according to their needs. These adjustments are specific to the individual and I have not adjusted a suit in the same way for anyone else. That’s why I don’t trust methods. Not every issue/problem has the same solution.
Using a basted fitting a tailor can see in real time the results/effects and evaluate the changes needed. This will be incorporated into the garment before it is constructed and not as an alteration afterwards like RTW or MTM without a basted try-on.
There are so many illustrations on SF of poor fitting suits. Poor fit overrides styling. A tailor is adjusting a pattern that otherwise does not fit or flatter a client to making it look as if the client has no fitting issues. You can determine results comparing RTW appearance to a well fitting custom jacket.

Basted fitting is invaluable to get insight on how to fit a client. My fittings don’t happen only in front of the mirror. I encourage clients to move, walk, reach for things, sit at a table. A jacket and trouser need a kinetic nature. The clothing needs to be evaluated in every way it moves as you move. I try to accommodate the fit to your physical movement not a static form. This process is essential and unique to custom clothing.

This is where the quality of sewing makes a difference. To me, better sewing methods are the techniques that enhance movement/fluidity and not restrict movement.
Quality sewing leads to longevity of a garment. Read the review JefferyD did of my 20 year old garment. His first comment was how the shoulder had retained the shape. There are things I buy I want to last and function for a long time, it’s frustrating when something doesn’t last due to poor quality. Tailors I know are putting their know how into constructing higher quality garments. Something you can see and also feel when you wear it.

Had some chairs reupholstered and used a place with a stellar reputation. Lady explained to me what made their work unique. They used better internal materials and construction techniques than most manufacturers. Explained how you never see what is used on the interior of a furniture piece or can see the way joints are made. That is where shortcuts are made. The chairs have been in use longer since she reupholstered them than when I brought them to her. They still look new. Same in clothing. Manufacturing costs are cut by changes you don’t see inside a garment. RTW is made for hanger appeal. Ever notice how many custom tailors show the interior construction on websites and IG accounts? There is something to see that sets their work apart and displays the integrity of the work.

My experience with the clientele I work with; 99% of comments are how the garment feels or how they feel wearing it. That’s what they enjoy the most. Could quote clients but I won’t.
Everything I say is what has been modeled to me by my mentors. It’s what I see in tailors that makes me realize they are good. It’s what you get when you find a good tailor.

 

[Despos]

First of all I want to thank you guys for all the incredible posts and insights on this forum. I'm an avid reader and always enjoy the conversations between you guys a lot. This will be my first post so please bear with me ;-)

The epitome of my wardrobe are the suits and jackets from Cesare Attolini. I'm wearing them for many years with a lot of passion but nowadays I get more and more doubts to keep buying them. First of all the mtm prices for a suit are very expensive at the moment (around €5000, while I used to pay €3000-€3500 5-10 years ago) and they keep rising. Secondly, because I'm reading the posts on this forum and PS about bespoke tailoring, it seems that mtm can never reach the heights of bespoke. I'm 201cm tall, 95kg so I can definitely see the benefit for that.

So if you consider both points, I have the feeling that for my budget and my willingness to travel to Italy, I can get a better product with the added benefit of an interesting experience to meet the tailors and learn more about this world. I have a few questions to you:
- where does Attolini stands exactly if you compare them with bespoke tailors? Obviously you can't compare the fits as bespoke will always win that battle, but more about the quality in general.
- where should I start? With an entry level tailor that costs 1/3 of Attolini to see the difference between them? Or going to the serious names with glorious reputations?

I'm looking at Ciardi, Panico and Eduardo de Simone (at their price point I'm really curious to see what you will get for that) but I'm happy to hear other recommendations. The only style I truly dislike is that of Rubinacci. The Ciardi suits on PS are my favorite so far, but Simon is not as tall as me.

Would be great to hear your thoughts and recommendations!

What country do you live in?
Choosing a tailor is also committing to the process. Don't know how you acquired your Attolini items but working with a tailor will require more involvement from you. Mainly to be there for fittings. You can sometimes prearrange with some shops to get measurements and a fitting in one trip if you are there long enough. Not every tailor can or are willing to do this. For a first suit it is really best to pick it up in person. The tailor can see his finished work and catch any final adjustments. Much better than having the suit shipped to you and not wearing it if you have issues.
You have to figure out how to select cloth for future commissions. After picking cloth for the next order you will still need to be there for fittings. Is this process sustainable ?
I would suggest tailors in Milan. Musella Dembech is one. Think you would have a better experience.

 

[dieworkwear]

In reverse order of your points.
My points are generalized and reductionist but that’s the only way I can communicate this.

Food/restaurant analogy.
RTW is like fast food. It’s waiting for you. It’s the same every time. You have no actual input of what you get.
MTM is like trying a restaurant. You choose from the menu. This is the block pattern. The template is set but you can adjust some elements of fit and styling to your preferences within limits set by the maker. You can only order the dish as it is conceived by the kitchen but you can get extra cheese or no cheese. Maybe sub cole slaw for fries. Depends if the kitchen values efficiency of execution or giving the client what he wants. Lack of choice in MTM factories is mainly to avoid bottle necks created by changes from the norm.
The food comes out of the kitchen made by a staff of cooks who do different stages of prep or cooking according to their experience and abilities. MTM is made in a factory by a staff of sewers who do the operations they are trained to do.

Custom (do not think bespoke is an appropriate descriptor) is like hiring a personal chef. He/she has the required skills but makes the food you want to eat according to your tastes. What do you consider spicy? How do you want the steak cooked? Do you have any allergies?
Personal chef is making food only for you and only has to please you, same as a custom tailor.

“Understand that bespoke is just about cutting a garment from scratch”
This doesn’t mean anything. Regardless of the method, block, paper pattern or creating a pattern on the cloth with a
tape measure and chalk; it’s the modification/adjustments of the base pattern to align the cutting with the clients physique. This is the value of a competent tailor who can read your physical characteristics and understands how to apply the adjustments in the cutting. This is very personal and distinct to each individual. In custom work the smallest details can get the proper attention. I tell new clients, “I know how to make a suit but I have to learn how to make a suit for you.” Every client is different. Custom work allows optimal personalization in a way MTM or RTW do not. Have a handful of clients that require adjustments according to their needs. These adjustments are specific to the individual and I have not adjusted a suit in the same way for anyone else. That’s why I don’t trust methods. Not every issue/problem has the same solution.
Using a basted fitting a tailor can see in real time the results/effects and evaluate the changes needed. This will be incorporated into the garment before it is constructed and not as an alteration afterwards like RTW or MTM without a basted try-on.
There are so many illustrations on SF of poor fitting suits. Poor fit overrides styling. A tailor is adjusting a pattern that otherwise does not fit or flatter a client to making it look as if the client has no fitting issues. You can determine results comparing RTW appearance to a well fitting custom jacket.

Basted fitting is invaluable to get insight on how to fit a client. My fittings don’t happen only in front of the mirror. I encourage clients to move, walk, reach for things, sit at a table. A jacket and trouser need a kinetic nature. The clothing needs to be evaluated in every way it moves as you move. I try to accommodate the fit to your physical movement not a static form. This process is essential and unique to custom clothing.

This is where the quality of sewing makes a difference. To me, better sewing methods are the techniques that enhance movement/fluidity and not restrict movement.
Quality sewing leads to longevity of a garment. Read the review JefferyD did of my 20 year old garment. His first comment was how the shoulder had retained the shape. There are things I buy I want to last and function for a long time, it’s frustrating when something doesn’t last due to poor quality. Tailors I know are putting their know how into constructing higher quality garments. Something you can see and also feel when you wear it.

Had some chairs reupholstered and used a place with a stellar reputation. Lady explained to me what made their work unique. They used better internal materials and construction techniques than most manufacturers. Explained how you never see what is used on the interior of a furniture piece or can see the way joints are made. That is where shortcuts are made. The chairs have been in use longer since she reupholstered them than when I brought them to her. They still look new. Same in clothing. Manufacturing costs are cut by changes you don’t see inside a garment. RTW is made for hanger appeal. Ever notice how many custom tailors show the interior construction on websites and IG accounts? There is something to see that sets their work apart and displays the integrity of the work.

My experience with the clientele I work with; 99% of comments are how the garment feels or how they feel wearing it. That’s what they enjoy the most. Could quote clients but I won’t.
Everything I say is what has been modeled to me by my mentors. It’s what I see in tailors that makes me realize they are good. It’s what you get when you find a good tailor.

Regarding the restaurant analogy, my point isn't to say that these are parallel processes but to underscore what I think is the greatest danger to custom clothing: the inability to put something back on the shelf if you don't like it.

I think many men go into custom clothing, and especially bespoke, thinking that custom = better. I read this in the OP's post when he writes "bespoke will always win that battle" and "mtm can never reach the heights of bespoke." This orders these processes like a pyramid: ready to wear (or fast food in your description) is the entry-level, poor quality stuff. Made-to-measure is slightly better. Then bespoke is some pinnacle.

But when you see what so many guys actually get back, the bespoke product is often ... not great. And if they had tried that garment on off-the-rack, they may not have chosen it. Sometimes the garment is just bad; sometimes it doesn't suit their styling preferences. However, since they went custom, the order is final sale.

Instead of ranking these processes like a pyramid, I think it would be better to think of the process of going to a bespoke tailoring shop like going to a restaurant. You can mitigate your risks somewhat by reading reviews and getting recommendations, but ultimately you won't know until you try it. I know a few people who didn't like what Steed made for them, despite the company's reputation. I have a friend who had a good experience at A&S, but I did not. So on and so forth.

Regarding the rest of your comment, I think this again greatly differs by the company, and a customer may not know what will be the experience until they go in. There are some tailors who put a lot of attention into each garment; others who do not. There are some tailors who won't deviate much from their house style. There are also customers who assume there's more flexibility than there is in the process. I interviewed a tailor last month who expressed to me his frustration of having customers come in and ask if he can make a suit they saw online (often Liverano). He can't replicate that suit, but he can make his version of it. If he accepts the order, then customers get upset when the suit doesn't look exactly like what they saw online.

I think Simon does a good job of communicating the kind of upsides and general processes you describe in your post. But my experience with bespoke, as well as the stories I've heard from many clients of bespoke tailors, leads me to believe the actual process is much more varied across the market. One guy the other day told me about how he ordered a bespoke sport coat from a Neapolitan tailor. On the way to the airport, the lining fell out (how's that for the "quality" difference between bespoke and RTW?). I thought it was a great story and we both had a laugh. If someone goes into bespoke, I think it's best if they assume they'll experience something ridiculous like this at some point and roll with the punches. If they think custom = better, they will be disappointed with many orders.