Can you keep bespoke suit cutting pattern?

[Richard Pryor]

I finally found a local tailor that makes MTM suits. They've been in the business for a long time (85 years). Apart from being cheap, they are pretty laid back in terms of being 'jealous' of their work (or maybe the correct term is 'proud'?) Sorry English isn't my 1st language. What I mean is, they wouldn't be insulted if I brought them a cutting pattern from a previously made suit, and/or the suit itself, and asked them to replicate the suit. On the contrary, they would feel good if I end up a happy customer. And isn't that what it's all about? Anyway, I'm not so sure about their sense of style, though. After all, things have changed in terms of style. So I may feel more comfortable by first getting a MTM suit from one of the SF approved tailors, with all the details I'd want in future suits, and then taking that suit (along with the pattern) to the local tailor. I went there today (it's a 2 hour drive) and the man was very accommodating and aimed to please me. He said suits started at $260, but fabric selection was pretty poor. I think it was around $230 if you brought your own fabric. He said he could do anything I wanted, including working sleeve buttons, however many pockets I wanted, etc, etc. He'll probably charge a bit more if I get very picky, but at most I think he'd charge $300 if I bring my own fabric. He showed me some fabric books, which he said he didn't have in store but could order if I was interested, but I didn't recognize any of the names (I only know Zegna and LP). Some names were Cerruti and something di fabio if I'm not mistaken. There were like 10 tailors working today. They were doing everything by hand. They had some basic sewing machines, but I don't know enough about suit making to be able to tell you everything was made by hand. Didn't ask him, either. I saw some patterns lying around on the working tables. I guess my question is, how comfortable would a US bespoke (or MTM) tailor be in selling me the cutting pattern (+ suit of course) if I'm upfront about my intentions? And how much more should I be looking to pay? Finally, I read an old thread asking if the cost of bespoke should include being able to keep the pattern, which is not my question since I would ask the tailor before hand if he'd be willing to sell it to me. Anyway, in that thread, big time posters make comments like:

In any case, having the pattern is not likely to do you any good, as I don't know any tailor who work off of another's pattern. Most would probably take that as an insult.

the more you pay for better and better bespoke, the more you are paying for intangibles that a paper pattern can't capture. At the end, it just seems relatively unimportant.

Patterns take many fittings -- sometimes even several suits -- to refine. A pattern that is drafted after your being measuring, but never corrected through actual fittings, will be not quite useless but quite imperfect.

To the first comment, well I do know one tailor who wouldn't mind at all working off of another's pattern, and I'm sure he has bigger problems in life for him to be insulted by it. Maybe in Italy or London or USA tailors feel that way, but in my neck of the woods, and I'm guessing Asia as well, people have bigger things in life than to worry about things like that. I think you guys have a couple of sayings for this? Money talks? Putting food on the table? The second and third questions are a little more pertinent. Will the bespoke paper pattern (along with the suit so he can examine it) not help my tailor to make the exact same suit for about $1500 less? I know some of you guys are sensitive about this subject, so I'm not trying to ruffle your feathers. I'm just trying to save $1 or $2, and if that means 5% difference between suits for $1500 less, frankly I'll take the cheaper one and know I'll be better dressed than 99% of the people around me. Thanks for your time.

 

[Maccimus]

It won't work unless the two tailors learned from the same school/mentor.

 

[Poindexter]

As a first bash, I can tell you that as a bespoke craftsman in a couple of other arts, another guy's patterns, jigs and fixtures are going to be of exactly zero utility to me. He has his lick, I have mine, and the divergence in method eliminates common utility of such tools about 99%. Poinz

 

[Freddy Vandecasteele]

As you mention 5% saving is going to cost you infinite problems.
You like the product pay the man.
I would never use a pattern given to me, unless they specify that is what they want
and then no fittings adjustments would be allowed.
Nickel and Diming in made for you does not work.
The prices you mention do not make sense or do not reflect quality.
Freddy Vandecasteele

 

[Richard Pryor]

How did you come up with 5% savings? Are you able to read?

Go read my post again. Read it once more if your 95 IQ requires you to read things 3 times before you can comprehend. Then come back and tell me how you came up with 5% savings.

 

[RSS]

Originally Posted by Richard Pryor

I guess my question is, how comfortable would a US bespoke (or MTM) tailor be in selling me the cutting pattern (+ suit of course) if I'm upfront about my intentions? And how much more should I be looking to pay?.
You won't know until you ask ... whether he'll sell the pattern or how much he'll want for it. I'd find several tailors whose work you like and pop the question ... upfront as you say.

I did ask one tailor if they'd sell me my pattern ... not to copy but to put on the wall of my art studio. This particular tailor refused. That said, I can't imagine that there isn't some tailor out there who won't sell you the pattern.

Originally Posted by Richard Pryor

The second and third questions are a little more pertinent. Will the bespoke paper pattern (along with the suit so he can examine it) not help my tailor to make the exact same suit for about $1500less?

This is probably best answered by a tailor, but I can't imagine that it wouldn't help. Assuming the tailor you ask to copy the original work has some ability ... has both the pattern and the original suit ... the result should be of a similar style.

I've never taken a pattern, but I the 1980s I did take a bespoke suit to a tailor in Hong Kong to have him copy. I never considered the results the equal of the original, but they aren't bad. I still wear them from time to time.

 

[Concordia]

Probably your best bet is to take them a suit you like and ask for as close a copy as they can do. The actual paper pattern might not mean much to them, and you're unlikely to get your "good" tailor to sell it to you.

Oh, and the fellow who has an IQ of 95 might be worth listening to: http://sleevehead.blogspot.com/2006/...e-bespoke.html

 

[GBR]

The pattern is personal to you AND to the cutter that drafted it. He (or she) and he alone will be able to work from it properly and, yes, it is an insult to the man you now favour to do so. The pattern usually remains with the original cutter and all the but cheap skates respect that.

If you like his work, pay the man to do it and not try to cut corners. Taking a pattern, bringing your own cloth, you really are denigrating the man's skills before you even start.



You also need to distinguish between MTM and bespoke of the varying degrees. The header says one thing, the text another If it is MTM he will use his own block and adjust against it, if using a personal pattern that that is bespoke.

 

[TheTukker]

Originally Posted by Concordia

Probably your best bet is to take them a suit you like and ask for as close a copy as they can do. The actual paper pattern might not mean much to them, and you're unlikely to get your "good" tailor to sell it to you.

This makes a lot of sense to me and may not get you perfect results - if there is such a thing with bespoke - the first time around, but you will be well on your way.

Originally Posted by Concordia

Oh, and the fellow who has an IQ of 95 might be worth listening to: http://sleevehead.blogspot.com/2006/...e-bespoke.html

And yes, the OP has been around here for a while, so I thought he knew better than to insult FvdC. RP: be happy that he weighed in on your question; this forum really benefits from pros like FdvC who care to share their knowledge and expertise.

right back at ya.

 

[Richard Pryor]

Didn't know who he was, and I was drunk and angry when I posted that last night. So apologies to that man. But still, it was not a 5% savings... more like 75%

Maybe I need to read more about what a cutting pattern is. My understanding was that with the pattern, it would be easier to recreate the suit. Otherwise, why would tailors be so protective of it?

 

[Despos]

There are hundreds of pattern drafting methods and they are unique to each tailor. Taking a pattern to another tailor doesn't insure your outcome.
So you buy a pattern from tailor X. If it hasn't been used to make you a suit you have no idea of what the balance or styling/silhouette will look like. The tailor you use to construct the suit will have no idea of what the suit will fit like or look like on you because he didn't make the pattern and hasn't used the pattern before. So lets say the pattern is known and perfected. If the fitting/sewing skills of the tailor constructing the suit aren't that good he will diminish the effect of the pattern and you won't be happy. So who is responsible now. One guy gave you a great pattern but the other butchered the making and fitting and the sewing was poor enough to loose any of the expression of the cutting. Or the second tailor sews it to perfection but the pattern wasn't good and your not happy.
Good sewing technique is just as important to the stylistic outcome of the clothing as the cutting and fitting skills are just as critical to a good outcome of the cutting. The pattern is less important than the fitting skills of the tailor making the clothes.
You can take the same pattern to 3 different tailors and you will get 3 different results. Point is, you can buy the same ingredients a 3 star Michelin restaurant uses and take it to a local chef and not get what you expected.

You would benefit to find a tailor you trust for the entire process.

 

[voxsartoria]

..

 

[Despos]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

I think that you could successfully pitch this as a reality TV show.

Maybe even get that gal whose grandfather made that version of King Kong to host.

Let me know it you won't use this idea. Thanks.


-B

I met Fay Wray, she was in the original 1933 version of King Kong.

 

[JLibourel]

I wouldn't try to get a pattern from one tailor and bestow it upon another (cheaper) tailor to utilize. I doubt if most tailors would surrender the pattern, and it would be beneath my dignity to ask for it in any event.

I know that the well-respected tailoring firm of W.W. Chan asks first time customers to wear their best-fitting suit to their initial appointed, and Patrick Chu took measurements from my suit as well as from my body.

If you have a suit you like, just loan 'em the suit would be my advice, although as others have counseled, the copy may not be as satisfactory as the original. I frankly would have serious misgivings about what I might get from any MTM tailor whose base price was $260!

 

[David Reeves]

It only takes about an hour and a half to draft a Bespoke pattern. Its not really such a big deal for someone who can do it but people make it so. Its no use to any other tailor who is doing real Bespoke work.

If however your dealing with a factory to do MTM or OTR in the U.S.A they will typically charge you $1000 for a pattern plus the cost of the sample. This is quite expensive really