Can leather be ethical?

[Avocat]

Originally Posted by DWFII

^ Sure and I agree...up to a point. I'll tell you a story that informed my thinking some 40 years ago... I lived on a small piece of property when my wife and I were first married. We raised chickens and geese and hogs and goats and rabbits--small "homestead" as it was called back then. We "husbanded" them, we slaughtered and butchered them. Next place over lived a young man and his wife and children. They were what was known back then as "hippies." And held views not too dissimilar to what we hear in this discussion. One day the husband accidentally backed over one of his childrens kittens, crushing the lower spine and hind quarters. His children were crying, my children were crying, the kitten was crying...piteously. It was clearly in pain. But the neighbor could not bring himself to put the little thing out of its misery. Not only was he too "squeamish," he couldn't dirty his hands. So he came next door to ask me to do it. It was a sad task. I am sensible and sympathetic to the suffering of other creatures and I love little kittens as much as the next person. It was one time in my life when I came closest to going ballistic on another person and smashing their face in. If you're too squeamish to kill you should be too squeamish to eat. Because in the end it is the same thing. Placing the responsibility for killing another living creature on someone else is not ethical. It is, in fact, the antithesis of ethics. "Do your own dirty work" is the essence of ethical behaviour.
DWFII ... back to psycho killers/murderers and strangling kittens again?

Meat and animal products are necessary for the human diet. Plants are not sufficient, their "proteins" not the same as meat protein, not to mention the lack of vitamins and minerals in a vegan diet--like B vitamins, calcium, etc. Not everyone factory farms, imo, and my food comes from ranchers who treat their animals properly. Basic economics 101 for you: you treat the animals well while alive (in Alberta, they free range in the mountains, with goats and sheep also acting as natural lawn mowers for which ranchers are paid, thus free range). They grow up lean, with more muscle mass. They taste better, and are better for you. Ranchers who do this fetch a premium for their product also; people are motivated to do that which is in their best interest, being rational actors, so if you believe in what you yourself are saying, support hard-working ranchers and farmers who don't factory farm, as I do. Quite simple, really. Problem: lack of land and price of food. Meat is a necessary food item, not a luxury, and should not be priced out of the hands of most people. If you mean to say that factory farms should be inspected and regulated, I couldn't possibly agree with you more. Fact: vegan diets actually aren't the best for you (this is a medical fact), though we in North America eat too much red meat (could we do with less red meat and more fiber on our plate? doctors say this, but this doesn't in any way detract from the fact that it's ethical to use animals for food and clothing, etc). As to the "gospel", it tells us so and always has, and on this point it is actually backed by science. If you are Jewish, it also tells us to treat animals with respect, not to run over them with our cars or do bull-fighting/dog-fighting/cock-fighting (which are cruel blood sports), or otherwise prolong their suffering. They are here for us to use for legitimate needs, like food and clothing, and if you want to give up your right to use them, that's fine, but nobody has a right to tell anyone else what to do. This is true for ethical hunting, too. Support things with your wallet, people. Base your opinion on science, not fantasy or conjecture. Natives have more respect for the planet and all living things on it than most, and always have, as do ethical hunters (who follow Native practices, with Natives having constitutional rights, too). Ranchers and farmers are hard-working and properly treat what ends up on our plate. They are finding it tough to make a living--competition for land, and cheap factory-farmed product, turning to other animals such as ostrich, venison to make a living, because they refuse to factory farm. Support them, the Natives and ethical hunters. Simple really. Kittens and serial killers have nothing to do with it. That's just well silly talk, having no bearing whatsoever on your own arguments, and even less on the subject which is can leather be ethical. Of course it is, which I've said before and reiterate: using the whole animal not only makes good economic sense, but treats it with respect. As an aside, when my father moved to the country estate from the city home during the Depression, he adopted one of the baby animals. He gave it a name and raised it. He had no problem eating all the other animals when cooked for dinner---nor did he have any issue as a child when my grandfather gave people in the county food and materials off the land in exchange (i.e., jobs to people who otherwise were starving). He had a huge problem, however, when it came time to eat the animal he had himself raised and cared for. I won't tell you what it was, but I will tell you it wasn't a kitten, nor was it a human being either. (There is a reason why ranchers don't name their charges, and might say my father who grew up on an estate during the depression when people had to grow their own food, etc. learned this the hard way). There are no farms or country estates in NYC or Toronto or London or Paris or Tokyo or .... people go to the supermarket. That the estates of old are gone doesn't change a thing, and sounds to me like you're "preaching" that everyone become a farmer, DWFII ... which is, well, insane. There are laws against cruelty to animals--they're based on the Judaic-Christian bible actually (as most laws are), and tells us to be responsible and to respect our food. What more do you want? That said, no kittens or humans were injured in the making of this post, nor do I support: veal, blood-sports (bull-fights/dog-fights/cock-fights) or other "cruelty" to animals. Food and clothing are legitimate uses of animals, whether farmed/ranched or ethically hunted. This is all. tl/DR: get the real facts, based on real science not conjecture (or false "preachings") and vote with your wallet in accordance with your own conscious. And remember: you are what you eat (so choose lean meats over ***** meats, and you'll stay lean, thus continuing to fit into your suits

 

[RSS]

Originally Posted by Kent Wang

This is all conjecture on my part, but I would guess that all leather (excluding exotics like reptiles) is a byproduct of the meat industry. I've never heard of anyone cultivating cattle specifically for their leather. I would guess that the best leather is simply selected from the massive amount of hides that are produced by the beef industry.

It is even possible that non-factory-farmed hides are simply discarded if it's too much trouble to send them to a hide processor.

I have no qualms with eating or wearing any kind of animal product, but I find it interesting to know about.
I remember when Rolls Royce advertised the fact that their leather was from cows kept inside electrified fences ... so as to ensure a more perfect hide. This is not to say that the meat wasn't eaten. I suppose it was not in RR's interest to tell us.

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by Avocat

DWFII ... back to psycho killers/murderers and strangling kittens again?

sounds to me like you're "preaching" that everyone become a farmer, DWFII ... which is, well, insane.
With all due respect, what part off "at least once in your life" (my words) equates to preaching "that everyone become a farmer?" You may as well claim that reading every third or fourth word in a posting (and even then not getting it right) equates to literacy. But then, if someone is only hearing or reading every third word it's not entirely surprising that "psycho killers/murderers" would emerge whole cloth out of thin air...when "psycho killers/murderers" were never mentioned or alluded to. I'm a shoemaker. I wouldn't want to be a farmer...it's hard work and unappreciated especially by those who court ignorance like a lover. As for "psycho killers/murderers"...I try not to hang around with those kind of people and resent being written into that fantasy.

 

[Avocat]

^^ You're right. Save an animal, eat an animal rights activist ....

(just kidding). S'sly, your argument isn't logical, though; as to discussions about microwaving pets? Running over kittens? Some people know some very scary people, I agree. (I don't like murderers or those who torture animals for (sadistic) pleasure either, DWFII: electric fences sound about right for those types, but there's no connection b/w them and the OP's question). Anywho, ... myself, NOT a Buddhist. (Is that what you mean--i.e. Buddhist world-view? Depending on the sect most don't kill insects so don't eat meat either; if that's what you mean, then that would make sense). Me, different world-view: I love steak medium-rare, and I had roast caribou tonight--as hunted by Natives and sold to market--which I washed down with red wine. As it was cold, I wore a fur-lined, shearling coat. My car has leather seats, and my shoes are also leather. Stylishly warm and timeless, not to mention well fed. But I've never dug a ditch nor built a car, nor have I picked produce. I haven't sheared sheep, skinned/tanned hides nor traveled by dog sled in the Arctic to catch my own seal or caribou (though a trip I look forward to one day). Then, we don't all grow our own apples, build our own houses, perform brain surgery, etc., whilst killing our own dinner and making our own clothes and shoes (see: Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations). For the record, DWFII, I've hunted. Most game meat's in restos and/or supermarkets today, and a good thing, since you won't find cow farms much less wild animals in the cities to hunt, not to mention it's a crime today to walk your cow on a city street, so ... tl/DR: S'sly, to each their own world-view (including the Buddhists, though I think it depends on the sect, doesn't it? ... All good.

 

[DWFII]

^The more I read your postings, the more I suspect that you don't read anyone elses remarks except as a springboard for argument.... I was not the one who mentioned microwaving chickens. I referred to it in response to the person who did. But while I recognize the degree to which common sense and civilized behaviour has slipped in recent generations, I've never known anyone who would do something so cruel or ignorant. I read and re-read your remarks and I come away feeling like you're confused...not only about what I have said but about what you yourself believe. I am not an "animal rights activist"...if you actually read my posts, you would know that. I use leather every day and eat meat...bought from a meat market...several times a week. The last time I slaughtered an animal was 30 years ago. But I recognize and hold to convictions that are internally consistent: If you take, you pay. If you receive, you owe. Do your own dirty work and don't impose your problems/weaknesses on others. If you don't know, ask; if you aren't sure, don't pretend. Old fashioned, "ethical" stuff like that. Being ethical is being responsible. And vice versa. If you take a life or are responsible for taking a life, you owe something in return. Even if it is only to witness. Even if it is only once. To do less than you can is to denigrate the value of all life...even if you're a vegetarian. I have never said that everyone who eats meat or wears leather must experience the death of an animal...not every time (as several sleepy heads suggested); not even just once in their life. What I said was it is, in my opinion, unethical for anyone who eats meat or uses leather to not have experienced the whole process at least once. To shrink from a first hand knowledge of what is involved and what is sacrificed...on your behalf...is weakness of character if nothing else. There is a big difference in what I said and what you and several others have read...the the core of which is that if you haven't done, you don't have any credibility about whether it is ethical or not. You haven't earned it. Why? Because opinions based on supposition and pretense are vapourings, at best.. As for the kitten story...it wasn't about scary people it was about people who have no sense of honour.

 

[Tck13]

Originally Posted by DWFII

^The more I read your postings, the more I suspect that you don't read anyone elses remarks except as a springboard for argument....

It's pretty obvious that you can't understand what people are posting in response to your philosophies. Your "philosophies" have so many holes in them they're not even worth considering.

Originally Posted by DWFII

I am not an "animal rights activist"...if you actually read my posts, you would know that.

Actually, you are as your posts have shown and indicated but your fantasy about what an animal rights activist is/means is disconnected from your posts and philosophies.

Originally Posted by DWFII

If you take, you pay. If you receive, you owe.

This has nothing to do with what you're saying about "participating" in the "killing or butchering of animals".

Originally Posted by DWFII

Do your own dirty work and don't impose your problems/weaknesses on others.

Once again, this has nothing to do with what you're saying about "participating" in the "killing or butchering of animals".

Plus, "do your own dirty work" and "don't impose your problems/weaknesses on others" are mutually exclusive. Or, maybe you knew that. I don't know.

Originally Posted by DWFII

If you don't know, ask; if you aren't sure, don't pretend.

Once again, this has nothing to do with what you're saying about "participating" in the "killing or butchering of animals".

Originally Posted by DWFII

I have never said that everyone who eats meat or wears leather must experience the death of an animal...not every time (as several sleepy heads suggested); not even just once in their life.

Actually, you did:

Originally Posted by DWFII

it was unethical to eat meat or use leather if you have "never participated in the killing and butchering of an animal."

Originally Posted by DWFII

What I said was it is, in my opinion, unethical for anyone who eats meat or uses leather to not have experienced the whole process at least once. To shrink from a first hand knowledge of what is involved and what is sacrificed...on your behalf...is weakness of character if nothing else.

There is a big difference in what I said and what you and several others have read...the the core of which is that if you haven't done, you don't have any credibility about whether it is ethical or not. You haven't earned it. Why? Because opinions based on supposition and pretense are vapourings, at best..

No, you just can't understand what others have said in response to your posts.

Just because someone has never participated in, or killed, or whatever the your ever changing point is about consuming animals, is simply a matter of education and not ethics or morality.

Originally Posted by DWFII

As for the kitten story...it wasn't about scary people it was about people who have no sense of honour.

No, the person didn't have an education or experience to know what to do. It had nothing to do with ethics.

Just because someone else doesn't have experience in an area that you do doesn't mean that they're unethical or immoral. It probably just means that they don't know or are uneducated in that particular area.

"Give a Man a Fish, Feed Him For a Day. Teach a Man to Fish, Feed Him For a Lifetime" -Lau Tzu

 

[DWFII]

^ If English isn't your second language, it ought to be...you make a convincing case that you cannot read for content, you see words that are not there, and have a hard time putting what few coherent thoughts you might have into sentence structure. It's a discredit to your education and an abuse of the language.

Your "philosophies" have so many holes in them they're not even worth considering.

And you don't.

"Mind Bomb" indeed...nothing but wasteland and destruction as far as the eye can see.

 

[Tck13]

Originally Posted by DWFII

^ If English isn't your second language, it ought to be...you make a convincing case that you cannot read for content, you see words that are not there, and have a hard time putting what few coherent thoughts you might have into sentence structure. It's a discredit to your education and an abuse of the language. And you don't. "Mind Bomb" indeed...nothing but wasteland and destruction as far as the eye can see.
Hypocritical Ad Hom (and avatar, lol!) attacks really don't amount to much. You're welcome to show how what I've stated is incorrect.

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by Tck13

Hypocritical Ad Hom (and avatar, lol!) attacks really don't amount to much. You're welcome to show how what I've stated is incorrect.
Why do you think my avatar is hypocritical? Or is it another example of not really understanding the English language? As for showing that what you've stated is incorrect...the last three pages, at least, could have done that if you'd been open enough and studious enough to actually read my posts the way they were written and not with words and assumptions that you projected. No matter...I know a troll when I see/read one... 'Nuff said.

 

[George]

Originally Posted by DWFII

What I said was it is, in my opinion, unethical for anyone who eats meat or uses leather to not have experienced the whole process at least once. To shrink from a first hand knowledge of what is involved and what is sacrificed...on your behalf...is weakness of character if nothing else.
Well I don't necessarily think it demonstrates weakness of character. But, I do wonder how many people would carry on eating meat if they experienced animals being slaughter. My lasting memory of it is that I could still smell the abattoir when I got home. A very unpleasant experience. People are sometimes [too] far removed from the realities of things.

 

[TheWraith]

Originally Posted by George

People are sometimes [too] far removed from the realities of things.

+1

 

[lasbar]

Originally Posted by George

Well I don't necessarily think it demonstrates weakness of character. But, I do wonder how many people would carry on eating meat if they experienced animals being slaughter.

My lasting memory of it is that I could still smell the abattoir when I got home. A very unpleasant experience.

People are sometimes [too] far removed from the realities of things.

Somebody gave me 2 fresh lobsters and I started panicking at the thought of having to boil them alive..

I had to call my Slovak neighbour who cooked them for me.

I lost one of them in the deal...

 

[JLibourel]

Originally Posted by thunderthighs

I hear shell cordovan (the US made stuff anyway, not sure about Japan) is harvested only from horses that have died of natural causes. Probably about as ethical as leather can get, if you're concerned about such things.

This is bullshit...designed to calm the squeamish consciences of horse lovers. Most of the shell that Horween gets comes from France, where horses are slaughtered for meat.

A similar myth to placate animal lovers is that buffalo horn comes from the horns shed annually by the water buffaloes. Only trouble is, buffaloes (and other bovines) don't shed their horns. All buffalo horn comes from slaughtered animals. If it bothers anyone, the horns are by-products; the buffaloes are slaughtered for meat and hides.

As to the chicken-eaters who deplore cockfighting, all I can say is this: If there is any truth to the doctrine of transmigration of souls and for my many sins I am condemned to come back as a chicken, I would infinitely rather be a fighting cock than some poor broiler capon or factory farmed laying hen.

For that matter, I have no problem with properly conducted dogfighting (as in Japan, where it's legal in most places). The fact of the matter is the dogs love it...they just love it!

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by George

Well I don't necessarily think it demonstrates weakness of character. But, I do wonder how many people would carry on eating meat if they experienced animals being slaughter. My lasting memory of it is that I could still smell the abattoir when I got home. A very unpleasant experience. People are sometimes [too] far removed from the realities of things.
I think that's spot on. My remark about "weakness of character" referred to "shrinking from first hand knowledge." In other words, if you have the opportunity to see it or participate in the process, why would you try to avoid it? Many people do...citing no slaughterhouses nearby, or lack of time, or a weak stomach. But those are just excuses. And if you're an ethical person and feel nervous or squeamish, wouldn't the "strong", ethical thing to do be to grit your teeth and force yourself to experience the genesis of that rib eye or that pair of bespoke G&G full cuts? (my favourite things, BTW) Maybe even go out of your way...upstate, perhaps?...to actively schedule a place and time? It's all about ownership...not skimming the gravy while passing the tab. We all understand that, don't we? Or do we?

 

[in stitches]

either wear leather or dont eat meat or dont i dont give a crap but all this phsyco babble eco friendly peta bullshit is making me sick
im wearing alligator shoes (and watchband) sheepskin pants suede jacket and a mink hat sue me bitches