Black Lapel or Proper Suit?

[Gus]



Although....they sent out an announcement of their new spring & summer fabric options by email 6 weeks ago, but with no details. When I asked for info about what fabrics they were carrying, etc... I got a rather odd reply:

So, basically your only option is to book an appointment and see them in person. Certainly not an unusual business model, but a bit disappointing if you want to be able to re-order easily without a once-a-month appointment. 

I'm unfortunately still waiting for the remake on my jacket - for the suit I ordered in December. 

Selecting fabric at an appointment is how the majority of tailors and MTM operations work around the world . Supplies of quality fabrics come and go and are often very limited. Especially for many of the non-standard types.

You can't fault any company, Proper Suit included, for having you select fabric in-person at the time of order and establishing that as their policy.

 

[katabatic]

I wasn't clear enough -- I didn't mean to fault them for that model; more my own impatience . That's one reason I'm looking forward to checking out Beckett & Robb this week - having a location in the same city I live in is pretty attractive.

 

[jebarne]

Sorry to jump in on an older reply, but I have your same issue with the lapels NEVER laying flat, regardless of size.

In my case a tailor finally diagnosed it as a combination of 1- Slightly forward posture (also makes suits longer in the front) 2. larger chest relative to shoulder width. (overall circumference vs chest circumference is 3 inches less than ideal). 3. larger curve between my neck and my middle back than most guys have.

He was able to shorten the collar (removing the back of the collar and shortening it from gorge to gorge), let out the center back about a half inch, and back-stitched the lapel. Now perfectly flat.

I had an OTR Austin Reed, ordered from HSM ebay store for $100 that had the issue plus stood off my shirt collar an inch. About $90 in alterations later, the jacket fits really well and lays properly. I followed that up with a JAB cashmere blazer and a Paul Fredrick camel hair jacket. Both fixed.

I also ordered two M2M suits with very exact measurements (2 different companies) that were done by my tailor. both jackets didn't fit properly. I took photos and sent them back in along with extra measurements (why don't these people ask for half-shoulder distance? and how about left sleeve AND right sleeve?) and one came in right and the other was still wrong. I spent $50 on alterations and now its right. I only tell you this to say that unless you are extremely specific in what you tell them, it won't be right.

Proper Suit, Hilburn and some other do the measurements, and if it isn't right, they fix it until it is. I was to the point of flying to NYC to have a suit made by Mr. Ned and then use the measurements of that suit as a template for ordering. Still thinking about that if my attempts with Hilburn and Tom James don't give me the right fit, 1st time.

I should say, I own 3-4 suits every size from 50 to 42. I've been at the low size now for 18 months and am confident enough to replace all my suits with new ones and fit is my primary issue. I want minimum half-canvass, decent fabric (don't care if it is italian, indian or chinese if it is a good fabric), I don't care if it is machine stitched or hand stitched, though I'm open to the discussion if someone can should me the fit difference. So I'm buying 7 suits and 5 jackets/ blazers. Though I've had 2 suits made and a third altered to fit, only one of those would I wear to a business meeting. I'll wear the others to work, church etc.

Another thing I've done in the last month is to buy stuff on ebay. I have a samuelsohn, tom james, canali, brioni, barbera, zegna, burberry, hickey freeman suits/ jackets that I've ordered for CHEAP. (samuelsohn, barbera and burberry were only $30 plus shipping, canali was 60, brioni was 117). It occured to me that I could read about all these suits and still wouldn't understand the quality discussion until I had the actual clothes in hand. The samuelsohn jacket was a perfect fit. I've never had that happen. Next best was canali. Zegna not a good fit. everything else as average. of all these suits, I plan to re-sell the zegna and the hickey freemans and the tom james. the barbera jacket and the canali and the brioni are part of the new wardrobe. My wife thinks I've lost my mind, but when you're 55 and never had a great suit (ive had nice/decent, with fit compromises), Now I have a chance to have several. I want to spend as little on that as I can.

Now I know there are OTR options, albeit somewhat expensive that will work for me.

Best advice I got? Find a tailor and not an "alterations" guy.

jb


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Hey, if I was thinner, taller and better looking, I wouldn't have to spend so much on clothes.

 

[Gus]

Anyone from Styleforum in the Chicago area is invited to attend the launch party of the Proper Suit HQ in Chicago on Thursday May 19. They ask you to RSVP.

 

[ScootManSam]

I received my first suit from Proper Suit about a week ago and thought I'd post some pictures. Overall, I'm very happy with it, although I will make a few adjustments for my next one. I'm 6'2", 160 lbs with broad shoulders and am extremely thin through the body. McGregor fitted me and he was careful not to make it too close-fitting through the waist, so as not to make me look too skinny. I think he did a very good job on this. It also fits very well through the shoulders and neck. They are pretty meticulous about getting the collar to roll nicely around your shirt collar/neck. I think on my next one, I would move the arm holes up slightly and make it a little closer-fitting in the chest and slightly taper the sleeves in the bicep and forearm. The trousers will likely need a few alterations. The waist will need to be taken in slightly and the pants might be let down slightly. On my next one, I would taper the leg slightly throughout and bring the leg opening to 7.5" (it currently measures just over 8"). Some nice details on the trousers include a rubber strip sewn into the waistband to keep your shirt tucked in and some little strips that are sewn on the inside of the hems which give them a little extra weight to help the drape and also help keep the crease.

Jacket details:

• Basic solid navy super 120s from the $750 range
• Two button (dark horn buttons)
• Medium width lapels with pick stitching
• Slim European business cut
• Monogrammed camel suede undercollar

 

[Gus]

Hey Chicago....come on out to the Proper Suit event.

 

[Gus]

If you are interested in Proper SUit you might like to read this review on my blog http://abitofcolor.tumblr.com/post/56694083116/proper-suit-jacket-review-by-gus

 

[haganah]

So let me get this straight.

Proper Suit will make you a suit. And if they need to make alterations, they won't pay you back for it. In fact they will rarely even offer a "re-make".

All they will offer you is credit towards a next suit.

So you end up with at one definitely ****** suit but will be incentivized to purchase another possibly ****** suit.

Did I get that right? Because if I did, this is ingenious on their part and not quite so genius on your parts.

 

[ScootManSam]

So let me get this straight.

Proper Suit will make you a suit. And if they need to make alterations, they won't pay you back for it. In fact they will rarely even offer a "re-make".

All they will offer you is credit towards a next suit.

So you end up with at one definitely ****** suit but will be incentivized to purchase another possibly ****** suit.

Did I get that right? Because if I did, this is ingenious on their part and not quite so genius on your parts.

If you need to have some alterations done, they give you credit towards your next purchase. To me, this seems fine because you don't typically go the MTM route if you just plan on buying just one suit. Your fit should be close to perfect on the first try and and your second order should not require any alterations. On my suit, the jacket required no alterations and the pants needed about $60 worth, which will come out of my next suit price. If you're strapped for $60, you probably shouldn't be investing in $750+ suits.

Second, they don't make ****** suits so I'm not sure where you're getting that. It's not like Inchochino where you have to have two or three remakes to get a serviceable fit. The quality control is very tight. You are either fitted by one of the two founders, or two fit specialists that have supposedly gone through months of training and have been fitting customers for I think about six months. If there is some irreparable problem with your suit, tell them about it and I'm sure they'll make it right. It's not like you have to go through a bunch of red tape and defined policies like you would with Indochino or something similar. Bottom line is these guys know what they're doing, and you're going to get a suit that fits.

 

[haganah]



If you need to have some alterations done, they give you credit towards your next purchase. To me, this seems fine because you don't typically go the MTM route if you just plan on buying just one suit. Your fit should be close to perfect on the first try and and your second order should not require any alterations. On my suit, the jacket required no alterations and the pants needed about $60 worth, which will come out of my next suit price. If you're strapped for $60, you probably shouldn't be investing in $750+ suits.

Second, they don't make ****** suits so I'm not sure where you're getting that. It's not like Inchochino where you have to have two or three remakes to get a serviceable fit. The quality control is very tight. You are either fitted by one of the two founders, or two fit specialists that have supposedly gone through months of training and have been fitting customers for I think about six months. If there is some irreparable problem with your suit, tell them about it and I'm sure they'll make it right. It's not like you have to go through a bunch of red tape and defined policies like you would with Indochino or something similar. Bottom line is these guys know what they're doing, and you're going to get a suit that fits.

So you have just confirmed what I said.

The way to improve the fit in MTM or even bespoke is with the number of fittings, adjustments, etc. It's not a bad thing to have additional fittings.

Propersuit measures you once and based on the fact that they have a couple of people who "understand fit" (not master tailors mind you, just guys who "understand fit") they pump out a perfect fit. Although commissions improve over time, you're stretching considerably to make it seem as if multiple fittings are bad. If you need sleeves adjusted and have working button holes, if the shoulders aren't right, etc....all of these are considerable alterations that are not only difficult to do and get right after the fact, but they are costly. And it's possible that they will make it right - nobody wants a ****** rep - but the fact that this isn't their official policy and they only push you towards getting it right on the next suit is baffling at this price point.

Listen, I am trying to purchase one of these for my father who is not so easy to fit. The last thing I need is the headache of explaining why it didn't come out the right size and why he has to now go pay more to have it look right. And how if it requires an expensive alteration, they still won't do anything (officially). If anyone has used both proper suit and black label I would love to hear from them.

 

[ScootManSam]

So you have just confirmed what I said.

The way to improve the fit in MTM or even bespoke is with the number of fittings, adjustments, etc. It's not a bad thing to have additional fittings.

Propersuit measures you once and based on the fact that they have a couple of people who "understand fit" (not master tailors mind you, just guys who "understand fit") they pump out a perfect fit. Although commissions improve over time, you're stretching considerably to make it seem as if multiple fittings are bad. If you need sleeves adjusted and have working button holes, if the shoulders aren't right, etc....all of these are considerable alterations that are not only difficult to do and get right after the fact, but they are costly. And it's possible that they will make it right - nobody wants a ****** rep - but the fact that this isn't their official policy and they only push you towards getting it right on the next suit is baffling at this price point.

Listen, I am trying to purchase one of these for my father who is not so easy to fit. The last thing I need is the headache of explaining why it didn't come out the right size and why he has to now go pay more to have it look right. And how if it requires an expensive alteration, they still won't do anything (officially). If anyone has used both proper suit and black label I would love to hear from them.

I didn't say anywhere that multiple fittings are bad. I think you have to understand that this is not a bespoke suit company. If you want to have several fittings done by a master tailor, then you better be prepared to spend several thousand on a bespoke commission, or around $1,500 entry-level on MTM from a local tailor. It would be nice if the had one remake as their official, but obviously this is going to be built into the price of the suit and prices would be much higher. From what I understand, they are trying to keep costs as low as possible so that they can keep prices down. PS is basically an MTM company that offers more customization than any other on the market, that I know of. I did a TON of research on this company before signing up, and I don't think I've seen one negative review of the product. The only negatives are from skeptics like yourself who have no experience with the process and product.

When you say that the policy is baffling at this price point, what other suit makers are you comparing it to? At $750 entry level for a fully canvassed MTM suit, almost unlimited customization options and hundreds of fabrics, I think it's a great value. The only other maker that offers potentially better value (that I know of) is Kent Wang, but you will find a similar policy there. And the fit process for KW involves emailing pictures back and forth, with no in person fitting option. If they totally screw it up, I'm sure they'll do a remake, but I would rather have lower overall prices and no remake guarantee than jacked up prices and remake guarantees. In my experience, and from others who have reviewed PS, they do a great job making sure the shoulders are right at the fitting. They usually advise you not to get working buttons on the first suit, in case alterations are needed. This is what I did, but didn't need alterations anyways. Unless your father has a wardrobe full of perfect fitting bespoke or MTM suits, I think this will be the best fitting suit he owns. Anyways, that's my two cents. If it's worth the premium to have multiple fittings, I'd go to a local tailor. I don't think you'll find a better value at this price point though, except maybe Kent Wang.

 

[haganah]



I didn't say anywhere that multiple fittings are bad. I think you have to understand that this is not a bespoke suit company. If you want to have several fittings done by a master tailor, then you better be prepared to spend several thousand on a bespoke commission, or around $1,500 entry-level on MTM from a local tailor. It would be nice if the had one remake as their official, but obviously this is going to be built into the price of the suit and prices would be much higher. From what I understand, they are trying to keep costs as low as possible so that they can keep prices down. PS is basically an MTM company that offers more customization than any other on the market, that I know of. I did a TON of research on this company before signing up, and I don't think I've seen one negative review of the product. The only negatives are from skeptics like yourself who have no experience with the process and product. 


When you say that the policy is baffling at this price point, what other suit makers are you comparing it to? At $750 entry level for a fully canvassed MTM suit, almost unlimited customization options and hundreds of fabrics, I think it's a great value. The only other maker that offers potentially better value (that I know of) is Kent Wang, but you will find a similar policy there. And the fit process for KW involves emailing pictures back and forth, with no in person fitting option. If they totally screw it up, I'm sure they'll do a remake, but I would rather have lower overall prices and no remake guarantee than jacked up prices and remake guarantees. In my experience, and from others who have reviewed PS, they do a great job making sure the shoulders are right at the fitting. They usually advise you not to get working buttons on the first suit, in case alterations are needed. This is what I did, but didn't need alterations anyways. Unless your father has a wardrobe full of perfect fitting bespoke or MTM suits, I think this will be the best fitting suit he owns. Anyways, that's my two cents. If it's worth the premium to have multiple fittings, I'd go to a local tailor. I don't think you'll find a better value at this price point though, except maybe Kent Wang.

Well this thread is also on black lapel. With the upgrade to full canvas, they would be the same price almost no? And they offer alterations and remakes, etc. So on what level then is PS better? I'm not asking rhetorical questions; I want to know since it isn't making sense.

You are right in that there are a lot of positive reviews. Unfortunately, almost all of the positive reviews are from people who received the product for free.

I am not creating a negative review, as I haven't purchased from them - I am only saying it sucks that they are offering credit towards the next suit as opposed to standing behind their suit and fixing that one without charge. And remember, they were the ones that measured you - using their "expert fitters" so there can be zero error on the part of the customer and only on the part of the company.

 

[Gus]



Well this thread is also on black lapel. With the upgrade to full canvas, they would be the same price almost no? And they offer alterations and remakes, etc. So on what level then is PS better? I'm not asking rhetorical questions; I want to know since it isn't making sense.

You are right in that there are a lot of positive reviews. Unfortunately, almost all of the positive reviews are from people who received the product for free.

I am not creating a negative review, as I haven't purchased from them - I am only saying it sucks that they are offering credit towards the next suit as opposed to standing behind their suit and fixing that one without charge. And remember, they were the ones that measured you - using their "expert fitters" so there can be zero error on the part of the customer and only on the part of the company.

They have remade suits. They pride themselves in having perhaps the lowest percentage of remakes in this market niche. They attribute it to their expert fitting by four trained and experienced people. But they are not unrealistic that problems can't happen. If PS screws up, they will fix it. But there is a difference between fixing a problem that was their fault and fixing something because the customer changed their mind.

 

[ScootManSam]

For one, Black Lapel is basically the Indochino model where you input your own measurements and they send you a suit. It makes sense to offer free remakes when people are measuring themselves because the chances are you will either need a remake or alterations in excess of their $75 limit. I'm very skeptical of self measuring for suits so this basically disqualified them for me. And having to deal with remakes and reimbursements frankly seems like a giant pain ********** and a lengthy process. I chose to avoid this by going with PS, where the chances of needing a remake are much smaller, and PSGuy confirmed they will remake if they screw it up bad and it's their fault. If you could get measured at a pop up ever for BL that might be okay, but like PSGuy noted in his post, who knows what kind is training the measures would have. The PS fit specialists do nothing but fit people into their suits.

Second, I'm not totally famiar with BL fabrics but i think PS offers way more fabrics and has more fabrics from reputable European mills. PS also allows for way more customization. Since they create a pattern just for you, you can basically do any kind Of styling tweaks you want. It's about as close to bespoke as you can get without actually being bespoke. To me, PS offers a better product at around the same price. This is probably partially due to BL's seemingly larger marketing budget and nicer website interface. PS may not be quite as user friendly but Id rather have the marketing budget go into the product itself. And if something goes wrong, you have direct access to the founders of the company to take care of you. If you want to measure yourself, I would recommend Kent Wang where at least Kent will give you his expert opinion over email fit pics. Anyways, that's my two cents.