Sole Welting

[CalzolaiFeF]

Some people asked me about how many shoes I have. Probably somewhere around 10 thinking quickly. Several of them have cracked uppers. I wear them well past some cracks. When they get that way I use use them a beater shoes for the rain and such. As I said in the past I think there are many reasons based on some assumptions and experience. Before I get into that, on women's shoes lasting longer, DW might have a different idea, but just using some logic I think the large rotation does have to do with it, but so does style. Women's shoes generally have higher heels than men's shoes. When women's shoes are lasted they are lasted with this into consideration and lasted in a way where the foot is "flexed" more so than a man's shoe. This to me means that when a woman walks in shoes lasted in an already flexed position the leather doesn't need to bend and crease as much when they make a stride. There might be evidence of this, there might not, but that has always been a thought I have had.

On my shoes cracking: I have noticed a difference in the condition of the shoes I acquired after beginning to use renovateur. Almost all of those shoes are in the worst condition, also they are arguably "better" quality, but not arguably newer than the other older ones that didn't crack. Why is this? I don't know. Is it the turpentine drying out the leather? Maybe. Is it that the stuff just isn't very conditioning? Both? No idea, but the fact remains that reno was a constant for a while and older shoes I had that saw less reno are in better shape today than the newer reno regimented pairs.

Another factor that leads to my shoes not lasting as long as other people is I walk a lot. I live in New York City. To the subway and back is just under a mile. I probably walk about one half a mile during lunch on nice days. My shoes work a lot! So for somebody who shuffles from their house to their car and shuffles around their carpeted office of course their shoes are going to last longer. Furthermore, I wear dress shoes on the weekends too. A lot of guys wear casual sneakers or whatever. Those shoes for the most part don't exist in my world albeit maybe one or two days out of the whole year.

Another factor I attribute to the manufacturers. Some shoes simply are better made, with better materials. Some of those materials might be used for different reasons (aesthetics, style, weight, etc.) Some of my shoes went south quickly, others not so quickly. There could be Z variables along with this also, but just my experience across the different brands that I have had.

Women dress shoes last longer because (usually) they don't see the same abuse as men shoes. Women beater shoes (boots, flats and so on) are quite prone to utter destruction in a matter of months

On the Renovateur debacle... I've tested that product for two years: a small application every three months or so on a pair of French anilveau Oxfords (oxblood color). The usual procedure was to strip everything away with acetone, then Renovateur, then cream and wax (only one layer on the flexible parts). I've not seen a drying effect, but the Reno has the strange tendence to strip away the color. So, we don't use Reno at all on our production.

 

[thelonius]

Women dress shoes last longer because (usually) they don't see the same abuse as men shoes. Women beater shoes (boots, flats and so on) are quite prone to utter destruction in a matter of months

On the Renovateur debacle... I've tested that product for two years: a small application every three months or so on a pair of French anilveau Oxfords (oxblood color). The usual procedure was to strip everything away with acetone, then Renovateur, then cream and wax (only one layer on the flexible parts). I've not seen a drying effect, but the Reno has the strange tendence to strip away the color. So, we don't use Reno at all on our production.

But if I'm not mistaken this reno was applied to the interior, refering to earlier discussion about soles and linings deteriorating.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

Who me? I never have put reno inside my shoes.

 

[DWFII]



Personal experiences, if they're honest, count for a lot more than what some here say they should. They do for me anyway. Everyone's opinion and views are valid and can be informative. That's what discussion forums are about, after all.

Nothing wrong with personal experience--it's how we learn...to the extent that we are capable of learning.

It's when a person...despite protestations of innocence...starts pretending (or telling himself) that his experiences supersede or trump or outweigh the experiences of people who have much more of it, and at at a deeper and more complex level, that the problems begin.

There's nothing honest about that.

And no, not everyone's opinions are valid or informative on every subject. Especially if those opinions are formed in a vacuum or based on limited or incorrect information--assumptions, speculation, ignorance, etc..

--

 

[RogerP]

Personal experiences, if they're honest, count for a lot more than what some here say they should. They do for me anyway. Everyone's opinion and views are valid and can be informative. That's what discussion forums are about, after all.

Amen. And I have no reason to believe that anyone reporting their personal experiences is being anything less than honest - even where their experiences differ from my own - as with pB's experience with Renovateur.

Of course, some will categorically dismiss and / or seek to undermine personal reports which inconveniently do not happen support their particular claims. One might well question the intellectual honesty of such an approach.

 

[DWFII]



...

Re: reasons a shoe might crack...the flexing does have something to do with it, I'm pretty sure.

But also how many makers use a midliner anymore? Aside from stabilizing the foot a bit side to side (useful), a midliner reinforces the welt/inseam and softens the creasing.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

I am not sure what makers put in between the upper and the lining. I do remember some Japanese article showing a cross section of a G&G where through the vamp they insert some sort of mild stiffening fabric to presumably keep shape and reduce over-creasing.

 

[MoneyWellSpent]

Re: reasons a shoe might crack...the flexing does have something to do with it, I'm pretty sure.

But also how many makers use a midliner anymore? Aside from stabilizing the foot a bit side to side (useful), a midliner reinforces the welt/inseam and softens the creasing.

I am not sure what makers put in between the upper and the lining. I do remember some Japanese article showing a cross section of a G&G where through the vamp they insert some sort of mild stiffening fabric to presumably keep shape and reduce over-creasing.

Flannel or canvas seems to be fairly common.

 

[bengal-stripe]



Several of them have cracked uppers........Why is this? I don't know.

You might want to have your uric acid levels checked. If your feet perspire a lot, particular if you sweat contains excessive uric acid, that is a likely reason for the premature cracking of the upper leather.

English shoemakers put it somewhat simpler, less medical.........(well, I don't know you, so I don't want to repeat it).

 

[DWFII]

There is no clearer definition of pretentiousness or dishonesty than to presume to give advice to people you don't know about issues you know little or nothing about.

 

[DWFII]



English shoemakers put it somewhat simpler, less medical.........(well, I don't know you, so I don't want to repeat it).

You know me (kind of)...I'd like to hear it.

I don't know that there is a single reason. A lot of it has to do with the finish, some of it the tanning, some of it is environmental and some of it is body chemistry, I'm sure.

I'd like to find out more, though...that's a given.

 

[Exdeath]

"Everyone's experience is relevant and worth hearing, except when it contrasts with mine, upon which I will deride you as ignorant because you couldn't possibly know more than me because I am a shoe god and do more shoe-y stuff than you will see in a lifetime. Every other person that handles shoes for a living is lying to you because they want to sell you shoes and they sell more shoes than I do, and what the hell do they know? Nobody could possibly have any experiences that contradict my hegemonic worldview on the subject."

I think I just summarized half this thread.

 

[DWFII]



"Everyone's experience is relevant and worth hearing, except when it contrasts with mine, upon which I will deride you as ignorant because you couldn't possibly know more than me because I am a shoe god and do more shoe-y stuff than you will see in a lifetime. Every other person that handles shoes for a living is lying to you because they want to sell you shoes and they sell more shoes than I do, and what the hell do they know? Nobody could possibly have any experiences that contradict my hegemonic worldview on the subject."

I think I just summarized half this thread.

Why does this kind of crap always come from newbies?


I think this is apt...

From Steven Dutch, Natural and Applied Sciences, University of Wisconsin - Green Bay

The Script

" I'm sick and tired of self-appointed so-called experts and their know-it-all, arrogant attitude. Why don't you people stay out of things you know nothing about? To hear you tell it, you know everything and the rest of us are stupid." [COLOR=FF0000]("do the name Ruby Begonia strike a familiah note?!" See quote above)
[/COLOR]​

I've seen this script before. At this point I'm supposed to get all humble and apologetic and say "There, there. We didn't mean to make you feel bad. You're really a good person and a valuable human being and your opinions do count."

I'm tired of playing that game.

• We're not "self-appointed" or "so-called" experts. We are real experts. We're not "authority figures." We are real authorities.
• It's not arrogance to say what you know professionally. It is arrogance to reject expert opinion without having expertise of your own.
• If hearing the experts say you're wrong makes you feel bad or stupid, that is your problem, not ours. See a therapist and work on your self-esteem. If you think this is rough on the ego, try getting a paper or grant proposal you've worked on for months rejected, something real experts face all the time.
• We don't know everything, but we do know more on our subjects of expertise than other people, especially people with no training at all.
• Unless you have real evidence to back up your opinions, they don't count.
• If you hear something that conflicts with what you think you know, and you don't bother to check it out, you shouldn't feel stupid. You are stupid.
• If you want to take on the experts but won't spend the time, effort and money to become an expert yourself, you're not just stupid. You're lazy, too.
• If you think I'm disrespecting you, you're right. I have no respect for people who are uninformed, get angry when someone contradicts them, but are too lazy to get informed, and too cowardly to face failure, criticism, and the possibility they might have to change their minds. You're not a good person. Nobody who is lazy and cowardly can be called "good."
• Where did you get the idea you're so valuable? There are six billion of us. You're not all that unique. How exactly did you get the notion that you stand so high in the cosmic scheme of things that you have the right to make real experts treat you as an equal without bothering to acquire any knowledge yourself?

Think about it...

--

 

[Exdeath]

Weren't you the one complaining about people copy-pasting trite generic arguments? The one that ignores what other experts like Nick V say because they couldn't possibly be as expert as him? The one that likes to go on about people being rude and ignoring him but is possibly the most uncivil and dismissive person on this thread?

Do you own a mirror?

 

[thelonius]



You might want to have your uric acid levels checked. If your feet perspire a lot, particular if you sweat contains excessive uric acid, that is a likely reason for the premature cracking of the upper leather.

English shoemakers put it somewhat simpler, less medical.........(well, I don't know you, so I don't want to repeat it).

I asked about this previously. Uric acid, malic acid, various salts, acidic peptides, human sweat is complex and differs greatly between individuals (to the extent of being able to identify them). It apparently degrades leather insoles and linings + stitching with time, and for some more rapidly than others. Some contributors said that they apply cream to the interiors to protect them. It's a problem for me to the extent that interior uppers deterioation is more of a problem than sole durability.