Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..."

[DWFII]

I found the Vass book(Handmade shoes for men) in my language which is Spanish from 1999 so I bought it(Zapatos de caballero Hechos a mano). Waiting for it to be delivered but looking forward to having a look at the pictures and read it. I suppose to most of you it won't be anything new but I'm excited about it.

It's a very good book for non-shoemakers (and there's even something to be learned, here and there, for long time shoemakers) but it won't give you enough in the way or instructions to make a pair of shoes. Just sayin'...

That said, I own it and wouldn't want to be without it.

 

[vmss]

Great article. Thanks for sharing it with us.
I liked how Peter explained what to expect from machine vs hand made products.

"To me, machine mentality has the following characteristics:

1. Precise raw materials (size, content)
2. Partial re-shaping of materials
3. Quick and cheap precision
4. Expectation of uniformity

In hand mentality we have different characteristics:

1. Irregular raw materials
2. Complete re-shaping of materials
3. Precision-comes only with many steps
4. Expectation of variety."

 

[deez shoes]

It's a very good book for non-shoemakers (and there's even something to be learned, here and there, for long time shoemakers) but it won't give you enough in the way or instructions to make a pair of shoes. Just sayin'...

That said, I own it and wouldn't want to be without it.

What books would you recommend that focus on the actual instructions of making shoes?

 

[DWFII]

What books would you recommend that focus on the actual instructions of making shoes?

Depends on the level of complexity and involvement you want to get into. Thornton is great for a semi-modern overview esp. from a factory perspective.

Golding is pretty good for a little deeper look at bespoke work.

No book that I am aware of is sufficient to guide a person through the shoemaking process entirely. Again, Golding may come closest and that over a span of three volumes.

My own book covers making a pull-on (cowboy) boot pretty well...better, IMO, than anything before or since. And a lot of that is applicable to shoes as well. But is, admittedly (and purposefully) pretty narrowly focused.

BTW, both Golding and Thornton are available as scanned and recognized pdfs (scanned, converted and compiled by yours truly) for free download on The HCC Homepage/ Guild Library.

 

[deez shoes]

Depends on the level of complexity and involvement you want to get into. Thornton is great for a semi-modern overview esp. from a factory perspective.

Golding is pretty good for a little deeper look at bespoke work.

No book that I am aware of is sufficient to guide a person through the shoemaking process entirely. Again, Golding may come closest and that over a span of three volumes.

My own book covers making a pull-on (cowboy) boot pretty well...better, IMO, than anything before or since. And a lot of that is applicable to shoes as well. But is, admittedly (and purposefully) pretty narrowly focused.

BTW, both Golding and Thornton are available as scanned and recognized pdfs (scanned, converted and compiled by yours truly) for free download on The HCC Homepage/ Guild Library.

Thanks!

 

[monkk]

Hi all,

I hope this is right place to ask this question.
I love in city where no cobbler is able to replace GY welted shoe sole by stitching it with welt. Only they offer is cork and sole replace with gluing sole.
Is there a big downside not having sole+welt stitching?

I don't speak fluent local language, but it's strange how cobblers complain that welt is too narrow for their machines to make stitching or they offer stitching with insole rather welt.

Regards

 

[Manuel]

Hi all,

I hope this is right place to ask this question.
I love in city where no cobbler is able to replace GY welted shoe sole by stitching it with welt. Only they offer is cork and sole replace with gluing sole.
Is there a big downside not having sole+welt stitching?

I don't speak fluent local language, but it's strange how cobblers complain that welt is too narrow for their machines to make stitching or they offer stitching with insole rather welt.

Regards

It is very difficult to find someone who knows how to sew by hand.
It all depends on the shoes you have, but you must be very careful.
It is very amusing to see here individuals who defend and advise this type of arrangement, I am going to upload an example.
You should note that all cobblers show the soles underneath, the soles very nice and clean, leather, JR .....
What happens if we see them from above?
Here, you can see that machine-stitching destroys welt and the welt is the soul of the shoe.
The sole underneath is designed to step directly on the floor, dog poop, spit and all the crap in the street .....

I can not imagine this machine repair in a shoe from Lobb, Lattanzys, Foster & Son, Gaziano & Girling, Stefano Bemer

.....

You notice, the repair is perfect

Well, now look carefully at the welt, you can check that the machine has not followed the previous points and consequently the welt has been bored and although I endure this change of soles the shoe has been very damaged, this in a quality shoe ..

Regards

 

[DWFII]

Hi all,

I hope this is right place to ask this question.
I love in city where no cobbler is able to replace GY welted shoe sole by stitching it with welt. Only they offer is cork and sole replace with gluing sole.
Is there a big downside not having sole+welt stitching?

I don't speak fluent local language, but it's strange how cobblers complain that welt is too narrow for their machines to make stitching or they offer stitching with insole rather welt.

Regards

I am not a moderator but I am the one who started...and deliberately named...this thread. In my opinion, this question belongs in the "Ask your shoe repair questions here:" thread.

This is a thread about shoemaking not shoe repairing.

If in doubt, simply remember that a cobbler is a repairman, he is not necessarily or very often a shoemaker. A shoemaker is a "cordwainer" or simply "shoemaker." The cobbler seldom has the skills of a shoemaker.

That said, if the welt is so narrow that it cannot be stitched, the cement repair will be too weak to be reliable. Cork is never going to be solid enough to be a base for cement repair.

The photos that @Manuel posted are telling...as far as they go. They don't tell the whole story. Machine stitching will not necessarily ruin or chew up the welt. That is all in the hands of the operator (cobbler) and the procedure he applies to the repair. If the cobbler removes the old stitching as he removes the old outsole, and adjusts his machine correctly the chances of damaging the welt are small.

Hand stitching the outsole is not a skill many cobblers have and even if they did, doing so would make the repair more expensive than most customers would want to pay. Especially if it were done in a Traditional way. Just because the outsole is stitched by hand doesn't mean the job is done correctly.

Here is a photo of hand stitching done the Traditional...and IMO, the "correct"...way. With a square awl (AKA a "stitching awl), not a sewing awl (which is oval in cross-section). The stitching is being done at 12 stitches per inch although much finer frequencies were common during the glory days of bespoke shoemaking

Here is 12 SPI...

 

[Manuel]

The photos that @Manuel posted are telling...as far as they go. They don't tell the whole story. Machine stitching will not necessarily ruin or chew up the welt. That is all in the hands of the operator (cobbler) and the procedure he applies to the repair. If the cobbler removes the old stitching as he removes the old outsole, and adjusts his machine correctly the chances of damaging the welt are small.

That is true, I have generalized, but you are right,

 

[monkk]

If in doubt, simply remember that a cobbler is a repairman he is not necessarily or very often a shoemaker. And the cobbler seldom has the skills of a shoemaker.

That said, if the welt is so narrow that it cannot be stitched, the cement repair will be too weak to be reliable. Cork is never going to be solid enough to be a base for cement repair.

Thanks DWFII and Manuel for answers.

Regarding standard GY method - is there any kind of adhesive between welt and sole together with stitching? I would expect so, otherwise micro gap would appear with time, no?

Is any very special machinery necessary for sole+welt stitching? I did same pair re-sole in London without no fuss. And assume local cobblers simply used to deal with cemented shoes mostly and have no right equipment for GY.

Finally, if welt is still generous and strong, is there imminent downsides of gluing it with sole instead of stitching? I was assured that future resoling will be still possible or this might be a lie?

 

[DWFII]

Thanks DWFII and Manuel for answers.

Regarding standard GY method - is there any kind of adhesive between welt and sole together with stitching? I would expect so, otherwise micro gap would appear with time, no?

Usually, in modern times a neoprene contact cement is used to hold the outsole in place in preparation for stitching. Personally, I would never trust the cement alone although many do. Even if the welt is not trimmed, it is, at maximum, only 5/8" wide. Pretty narrow strip to pinr hopes of reliability upon.

Is any very special machinery necessary for sole+welt stitching? I did same pair re-sole in London without no fuss. And assume local cobblers simply used to deal with cemented shoes mostly and have no right equipment for GY.

Usually this is done with a curved needle stitcher. They are almost ubiquitous in US shoe repair shops. Other machines can sometimes be used but the results are often uneven.

In the job posted by @Manuel the outsole has been grooved (common in commercial facilities where no one is trying that hard) rather than channeled.The curved needle machine, if set up correctly and used properly, can cut a channel while stitching that can be closed up to near invisibility.

Finally, if welt is still generous and strong, is there imminent downsides of gluing it with sole instead of stitching? I was assured that future resoling will be still possible or this might be a lie?

see above--I wouldn't do it but then "I'm a cordwainer, Jim, not a cobbler." (old StarTrek reference)

 

[Nick V.]

Some shops that do not stitch soles on use cement that's actually to strong. The problem with that is, when that sole needs to be replaced the welts can get damaged because the bond is to strong.

 

[DWFII]

@Nick V.

I'm not the boss of you but I thought we had a tacit agreement that you would confine your remarks to the thread you started and I would stay out of it? I even linked to that thread several posts ago.

[you can call it what you want, but nothing you do in shoe repair can properly be called "wet lasting" unless you are actually lasting a shoe--taking the first, second, third, etc., drafts that shape the shoe. You can butter my butt and call me a biscuit but it doesn't make it true.

Lasting is a distinct and specific operation ...one that creates the shape of the shoe. It's like a cobbler calling himself a shoemaker. If nothing else, it's pretentious.]

 

[Nick V.]

@Nick V.

I'm not the boss of you but I thought we had a tacit agreement that you would confine your remarks to the thread you started and I would stay out of it? I even linked to that thread several posts ago.



Tacit agreement? I never agreed to that....
Here is what you wrote in post 1832:

As I have suggested...over and over again, year after year...start your own thread. As long as you leave me out of it, I won't post to it. Scouts honour.

 

[deez shoes]

Out of curiosity, have you guys ever met in person?