Mod to Suedehead

[Botolph]



A funny antidote from an American: I was in London in about 1992 coming up the stairs from CamdenTown station. I was a full on Skin back then (albeit a bastardized US version haha) and in front of me were two of the biggest, scariest tattooed Skinheads that I've ever seen. Now, at the time in the U.S. if you bumped into a skinhead that you didn't know, the first thing you tried to figure out was what kind of skinhead they were (I know, I know but things were different then haha). Anyway, I was sh!£ing it because I knew any moment they were going to turn around, whoop my 17 year old butt and steal my new Ben Sherman's (which were an absolute treasure to a 17 year old skin from the U.S.) from me. To my surprise/horror, when we hit the top of the escalator, they grabbed each other and started aggressively making out with one another while speaking in the most lispy, stereotypical gay voices that I've ever heard! I was so stunned that I just stood there trying to figure out what I just saw! HAHAHAHA
Now, they still probably could have put the boot in and taken my gear, but let's just say that I was MUCH less concerned after seeing that display haha.
It was not until I moved to San Francisco 10 years later that I saw another hyper macho gay skinhead.

It could bave been Nicky Crane, haha.
But seriously, I made similar observations my first couple times in London in the mid-'90s.
It's like any stereotypically-tough look: they co-opt it and make it a joke...

 

[The Saint]

Anyone looking for more info on the all important topic of "mod beards" can check this out from a guy who started as a mod in the revival period and has pretty much keep going - this has special reference to the (apparently) "most famous bearded mod from the 1960s", ‘Beardy’ Pegley from the East End:

EDDIE’S BLOG # 1 – Mod Beards

http://www.themodcast.co.uk/eddies-blog-1-mod-beards/

Here is a shot of Mr Piller dodging "the mod beard police"

Manfred Mann always got away with it but he never wore the kind of thing favoured by greasers in leathers with eggshell helmets on. .

 

[The Saint]

You just jogged my memory. About a year ago I was in Glasgow, and I found myself walking along behind a bloke with an open-blade haircut, a black Harrington, skinny jeans rolled up, red braces hanging down, and big red boots. Orientation irrelevant of course, but what really struck me was when he turned round and I saw he had a Moeen Ali beard! Really, I guess, there's nothing to stop anyone, gay or straight, adopting items of clothing which are/were items of the skinhead style of any wave.

Shurely shum mishtake . .







Musht have been a tourist. .

 

[The Jak]

this has degenerated. All im saying is that fetish play skins piss me off for one main and specific reason, that being the total unlikelihood that they walk around in that gear 24-7. Its only on friday night because thursday is leather, wednesday is drag, and saturday (as we all know, ey skinnylegs?) is bears and cubs night 'down the oyster.

Fourteen to twenty hole cappers, painted on jeans, crimson 1.5" braces, and latex fred perrys arent "skinhead" just as much as tonic staprest, brogues, and razored in parting isnt "fetishboy" SO CALL IT SOMETHING ELSE.

For the edification of all you originals, and those of us on here not from the U.S., a little history... The fetish of skinhead play in the gay community was born in new york city directly due to the actions of harley flannagan and his russian buddy bashing queers in the end of the seventies. This really happened and the gay mens community on the lower east side of manhattan responded by dressing in jeans, bonehead boots, slingshots and flights just like harley and the russian in order to catch and kill them. They didnt wind up succeeding, but its documented in both punk and queer historical literature from the time. The "boyth" formed a posse, and it turned into a regular night at some of the bars because the guys who went undercover as boneheads to catch their enemies got laid like crazy out of gratitude from the gay scene who were being victimised. Simply put these guys were considered studs for standing up, and it caught on big time. There is a great likelihood that a parallel evolution occurred in england, but the real actual fetish is down to those two frickin dudes. Way to go, harley. Another of his briliant contributions. First album cro-mags does rule, tho'.

I'm friendly with queer folks in my labor union and in the punk scene here at home, and I fuckin LOVE some of the music, art and comedy that the lgbt community has put out, original punk is pretty much entirely attributable to gay people. Thank f()ck for what they did. But fetish skins can f()ck off. Its another friggin lousy chip out of our integrity.

 

[Man-of-Mystery]



Its another friggin lousy chip out of our integrity.

We hear you.

 

[Man-of-Mystery]



Thanks for that. But what about the brown DMs cited in the Skinhead Heaven article - do you remember what type of brown they generally were? And what about oxblood and cherry red DMs - when were they first seen?

I bought my first pair of cherry-red boots in 1968 - they weren't DMs, back then we wore all kinds of boots, though DMs were perhaps more popular than any other - shortly after moving down to London. I've told this tale before, but shortly after that I wore them on a trip back up north, along with a pair of jungle greens (see the Smithies), and the Northerners were unimpressed. In 1969 I had a pair of brown boots, again not DMs. You can see them in the picture of me where I'm wearing a sheepskin, it's somewhere on this thread. When did DM specifically bring out oxblood/red boots? I don't know. Maybe the company can tell you when they were introduced But what I can say is that black, brown, and red boots were worn all through the late 60s.

 

[skinny legs]

Im

this has degenerated. All im saying is that fetish play skins piss me off for one main and specific reason, that being the total unlikelihood that they walk around in that gear 24-7. Its only on friday night because thursday is leather, wednesday is drag, and saturday (as we all know, ey skinnylegs?) is bears and cubs night 'down the oyster.

Fourteen to twenty hole cappers, painted on jeans, crimson 1.5" braces, and latex fred perrys arent "skinhead" just as much as tonic staprest, brogues, and razored in parting isnt "fetishboy" SO CALL IT SOMETHING ELSE.

For the edification of all you originals, and those of us on here not from the U.S., a little history... The fetish of skinhead play in the gay community was born in new york city directly due to the actions of harley flannagan and his russian buddy bashing queers in the end of the seventies. This really happened and the gay mens community on the lower east side of manhattan responded by dressing in jeans, bonehead boots, slingshots and flights just like harley and the russian in order to catch and kill them. They didnt wind up succeeding, but its documented in both punk and queer historical literature from the time. The "boyth" formed a posse, and it turned into a regular night at some of the bars because the guys who went undercover as boneheads to catch their enemies got laid like crazy out of gratitude from the gay scene who were being victimised. Simply put these guys were considered studs for standing up, and it caught on big time. There is a great likelihood that a parallel evolution occurred in england, but the real actual fetish is down to those two frickin dudes. Way to go, harley. Another of his briliant contributions. First album cro-mags does rule, tho'.

I'm friendly with queer folks in my labor union and in the punk scene here at home, and I fuckin LOVE some of the music, art and comedy that the lgbt community has put out, original punk is pretty much entirely attributable to gay people. Thank f()ck for what they did. But fetish skins can f()ck off. Its another friggin lousy chip out of our integrity.

Sod all wrong with role playing. It's our anniversary at the weekend, which means Ill be slipping into a Sylvester the Cat number

 

[roytonboy]

OK, here are some more boot/DM related questions - perhaps the originals will be in a position to answer.

The author of the well-known piece over at Skinhead Heaven, 'These boots are made for stomping', claims that "brown was the standard colour in 1969-70". I wonder if anyone remembers what kind of brown he means. Was it an almost black/darkest brown tone like this pair of Hawkins?



Or a lighter, 'Ben boots' brown?

The kid's boots on the Richard Allen cover look like a lighter brown, too ... though that could just be dirt or sunlight.



When did skins start to wear black DMs? Only after 1970, as the Skinhead Heaven contributor claims?

He also writes that "the polish used was Cherry Red giving rise to the term Cherry Reds, which I think is confusingly used as a colour definition for DMs". Is this true? If so, when did Dr Martens introduce Cherry Reds? And what about oxblood?

There's a bit in the 1971 Newcastle skinhead/suedehead docu where you can see these:



They don't look like 'brown boots with Cherry Red polish' to me. They just seem to be oxblood boots.

Thanks in advance for any boot recollections.

Although I'm repeating myself, you have asked the question BK, so I'll answer. As ever, my response is in relation to what was worn in my locality (Greater Manchester) and may differ from other regions. Lads were were wearing boots to football matches from as early as 1967 and as the 'the look' evolved from late mod to skinhead this became more prevalent. Despite Kevin Rowland's assertion that 'they weren't for kicking people', this is precisely why they were being worn as violence between groups of young football fans became more common (almost unheard of in 1966, quite widespread by 1968, almost expected by 1969/70). As a consequence, all types and colours of boots were worn, initially the heavier and more lethal the better - steel toe caps were prized and heavy army boots with hobnails were quite common (Elwood recalls skinheads at Manchester City deliberately sliding across the concrete terracing on their hob-nails). As violence at football matches got into the newspapers and therefore the psyche of the general public, 'something had to be done'. In football season 1969/70 steel toe-capped boots were classified as an offensive weapon and you weren't allowed to wear them into a football stadium - it was then that Doc. Martens became very popular and by mid 1970 they were being widely worn. Prior to this I would say that black boots were the most common but ox-blood work boots were also popular and this may have lead to the popularity of 'cherry red' Doc. Martens. I don't recall many brown boots, though I had a pair myself in 1969 (work boots). In all honesty, I can't remember if Doc Martens were originally brown and polished in cherry red or 'Cardinal red' or bought already cherry red - it could have been that they were originally available in black or brown but so many polished them with cherry red that the manufacturers also started to produce them in red. As an aside I still have a pair of cherry red DMs I bought in the early 70's. Over the years they have been re-soled and are still in quite good condition but now they are in the loft - I won't wear them any more as I think they have become such a cliché. (Then again, I don't class myself as a skinhead and haven't since 1971, though I still like some aspects of the style)

 

[Bela Kun]

I'm sure there's a few people out there who'd love to save your cherry red 'cliche' from its lonely existence in the loft - including myself if you're a size 9. Thanks both for the very useful boot info.

 

[Clouseau]

I remember a few years ago, when DM re-launched the MIE boots, the first pair they made were 8 eyelets '1460' in oxblood, and they were said to be the fac-simile of the first pair of boots they ever made. Now this was maybe pure marketing.

These boots are Cherry red, definitely my size...



And they don't come cheap !

 

[craig matthew]

I am still looking for a pair of brown 6 eyelet Hawkins in a size 10 if anybody has a pair they no longer want
Cheers
Craig

 

[Man-of-Mystery]



...steel toe caps were prized and heavy army boots with hobnails were quite common (Elwood recalls skinheads at Manchester City deliberately sliding across the concrete terracing on their hob-nails).

I can recall several London boys wearing 'Hobbies'. In fact there was a talented cockney skinhead cartoonist I wanted to recruit to draw for Yell, who had his characters calling out "HOBBY!" as they stomped along in boots. (He only drew his cartoons on odd scraps of paper, and wanted paying. I didn't have any money to pay him, and no one else got paid.)

I wore boots because I liked the look, by the way, not for kicking people. I don't think I ever did kick anyone. Swung my fists a couple of times. I can't speak for any of the rest of the young blokes where I was.

 

[The Saint]

Legendary Ska trombonist , Rico Rodriguez , has left his body at the age of 80 . .

Originally from Cuba he moved to Jamaica before coming to Britain. Played trombone on both versions of A Message to you Rudy , by Dandy Livingstone , and the Specials..

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/sep/04/the-specials-trombonist-rico-rodriguez-dies-aged-80


In more recent times you would perhaps have seen him on Jools Holland show -Later. .

 

[Man-of-Mystery]

That's a loss. Fine musician. Though if you see him in clips of concerts in recent years he was very frail.

 

[Bela Kun]

A suit worn with boots - 1970 skinhead style, after all?

This is from a May 1970 magazine article entitled 'Skinheads in Focus', which is available at Ballroom Blitz
https://theballroomblitz.wordpress.com/2015/06/29/skinheads-in-focus/


I'm not sure whether these are just fashion models the magazine dressed up for the shoot or not.