knitwear slipping back throughout the day

[multiccy-csa]

Dear all,
I have recently noticed that when wearing a close-fitting merino v-neck, it tends to slip 'upwards' over the course of an hour or so, making a big gap between the neck opening and my shirt collar, and pulls the v-neck upwards which results in a really awful look. it seems to happen so much that occasionally the label at the back of the neck is prized out. I have to repeatedly correct it by pulling it down at the shoulders and below the v-neck, which is irritating.

What's going on? Is it too small? Is it my shoulder shape...? Does anyone else experience this?

Shown below how it starts out and how it ends up...!

 

[double00]

you're not really showing the back seams but i can more or less see what is happening .

it's the shoulder fashioning , it's maddeningly common to see , i suspect it is easy / economical to make up .

the back panel ends up very narrow with that weird sloped fashioning and doesn't give a true shoulder on that side , meanwhile the front panels wrap back to connect to the seam . that really narrows the yoke of the sweater and i believe that is why it rides up and back and why your shirt is trying to turn the tag out .

i'd find a sweater style with more patterned ease through the shoulders , there are plenty of options but i would avoid the style where the narrow back panel is almost like a tiny raglan and then the front has to wrap over to accommodate . to me that's a lazy pattern and kneecaps the ease required to fit a normal male physique

 

[multiccy-csa]

you're not really showing the back seams but i can more or less see what is happening .

it's the shoulder fashioning , it's maddeningly common to see , i suspect it is easy / economical to make up .

the back panel ends up very narrow with that weird sloped fashioning and doesn't give a true shoulder on that side , meanwhile the front panels wrap back to connect to the seam . that really narrows the yoke of the sweater and i believe that is why it rides up and back and why your shirt is trying to turn the tag out .

i'd find a sweater style with more patterned ease through the shoulders , there are plenty of options but i would avoid the style where the narrow back panel is almost like a tiny raglan and then the front has to wrap over to accommodate . to me that's a lazy pattern and kneecaps the ease required to fit a normal male physique

Thank you very much for the comprehensive reply. I have to say, i read it a few times, but couldn't quite put it together. I think a diagram may well tell a thousand words. I took a photo of the back, showing the fashioning, perhaps you could annotate the offending shaped seams and what might be required in a similar jumper to prevent this?
Thank you.

 

[double00]

^ great pic i'll put something together later

 

[double00]

first off this is a very common pattern to see since maybe the 90s-00s but it is not a traditional sweater shoulder like a raglan , saddle shoulder , drop shoulder etc . i actually have no idea what this style of shoulder that we are currently discussing is called . but it's trash .

first off note that the shoulder seam doesn't follow the shoulder , instead it takes a very steep line from almost the shoulder blade to the collar . meanwhile the front of the shoulder is left unshaped ( it's left flat across a row of knitting ) and plugs in squarely to the shaped rear seam . the actual shoulder line is the folded over front panel as it wraps in to connect to the back panel . i hope that makes sense ?

the result is that the seams come together down and in from the actual shoulder , see where the 3 panels : the arm , the front panel , and the back panel come together there is a Y-shaped complex i've noted in red .



with knitting seams represent hard points that are less 'knitty' than the body fabric , it's actually the same with fully fashioned decreases they are less flexible and more structured than the knit fabric itself .

in this case the structure is now inside and below the back of the shoulder , and it cheats the ease of the back as now the area in between those seams is narrow and overly structured . ( the green blobs are where your actual shoulders likely sit when you are wearing the sweater ) .

that's why the tendency is for the sweater to ride up and back , b'c those hard points tend to stay put on you while the rest of the yoke ( the front and the collar ) accommodates .

i'd look for another style of shoulder that restores ease through the yoke and accommodates your anatomy , there are plenty of options but i definitely avoid this style where a horizontal front panel wraps into what is a kind of vertical fashioned seam at the back , it doesn't add up .

 

[double00]

let me add one more observation that might help here :

that armscye construction might work for a knit vest , BUT :

knit vest + sleeves =/= sweater .

my advice is to buy or make a proper sweater .

 

[epsilon22]

let me add one more observation that might help here :

that shoulder construction might work for a knit vest , BUT :

knit vest + sleeves =/= sweater .

my advice is to buy or make a proper sweater .

For reference, do you have pics of good shoulder constructions? Aside from the ones with saddle shoulders, most of my knitwear seem to look like the pic above.

 

[double00]

For reference, do you have pics of good shoulder constructions? Aside from the ones with saddle shoulders, most of my knitwear seem to look like the pic above.

yep very very common to see . that style might be the majority of new knits idk but there are plenty of alternatives if you look around ...

my take is to avoid knits that turn the fabric to make the shoulder like so ( the parallel lines are the grain of the fabric ) :



while i can't offer a prescriptive 'buy this not that' here are some reference images . i'll turn the work inside out to illustrate what's going on :


90s polo and 60s varsity cardigan . neither of these have shoulder seams the fabric simply flips over from front to back . this can be done in pieces with a kitchener stitch but the point is the grain is continuous .


one of my own make . here i pieced out the back n front and shaped the shoulder horizontally . fwiw the shoulder line is my starting point to pattern b/c gravity .

so in general i would advocate for a square shoulder that may be reduced to fit ...

... as opposed to a wrapped shoulder that has nowhere to go , there is no way to add ease unless you opt for paneling the shoulder separately as in a saddle shoulder . this has been a huge bugaboo of mine for awhile now so it's nice to air this out .

hope this all makes sense !

 

[epsilon22]

yep very very common to see . that style might be the majority of new knits idk but there are plenty of alternatives if you look around ...

my take is to avoid knits that turn the fabric to make the shoulder like so ( the parallel lines are the grain of the fabric ) :

View attachment 2116515

while i can't offer a prescriptive 'buy this not that' here are some reference images . i'll turn the work inside out to illustrate what's going on :

View attachment 2116519
90s polo and 60s varsity cardigan . neither of these have shoulder seams the fabric simply flips over from front to back . this can be done in pieces with a kitchener stitch but the point is the grain is continuous .

View attachment 2116521
one of my own make . here i pieced out the back n front and shaped the shoulder horizontally . fwiw the shoulder line is my starting point to pattern b/c gravity .

so in general i would advocate for a square shoulder that may be reduced to fit ...

... as opposed to a wrapped shoulder that has nowhere to go , there is no way to add ease unless you opt for paneling the shoulder separately as in a saddle shoulder . this has been a huge bugaboo of mine for awhile now so it's nice to air this out .

hope this all makes sense !

Thank you. Very informative.

I took a look at a WL turtleneck and a PWVC turtleneck, both exactly follow the drawings you made above, with the front panel wrapping around to the back side. I have two WL crewnecks with saddle shoulders, interesting to compare how they are constructed.

 

[double00]

Thank you. Very informative.

I took a look at a WL turtleneck and a PWVC turtleneck, both exactly follow the drawings you made above, with the front panel wrapping around to the back side. I have two WL crewnecks with saddle shoulders, interesting to compare how they are constructed.

no prob i love knits . it's fun to talk this out !

the turtleneck concept supports a more generous collar and needs less structure to build ( for instance there's no need to dip down at the back of the collar in fact you often want a straight line at the back of the neck as a collar stand ) than for example a crewneck where the finish is mean to sit flat . that extra wedge of fabric is ease .

there is also something to be said for a fitted midlayer but the neckline shouldn't be riding up and back . op could size up but then again might get fit issues elsewhere . cheers !

 

[multiccy-csa]

Thank you @double00.
I need to sit down with a tea towel over my head to try to understand this, although i think i follow the gist of the underlying physics.
However, i must say, now that I'm in my mid-forties and have been buying myself knitwear for twenty five years, quickly flicking through my collection as @epsilon22 observed, all my other knits follow an almost identical pattern. I buy mainly Smedley, Lockie, modern Pringle, Polo RL and Luca Faloni.

Every single piece resembles the 'trash' above.

You suggested it might be possible to address the issue by sizing up? I am slim, i don't think I've ever bought anything other than 'S', in knitwear as if any larger it tends to ruck up too much, but perhaps that's my only practical solution here, and it is 'give and take'.

Unless you know of brands that offer the 'correct' fashioning and sufficient room for the shoulders to move?

As an aside, I often find the rear left shoulder of lighter gauge (e.g. 30 gauge Smedley) cardigans annoyingly ride up my shoulder and sometimes wonder if i have an odd shape, but could be due to the same 'suboptimal' construction.

Thank you again for your thoughts and explanation.

 

[double00]

Thank you @double00.
I need to sit down with a tea towel over my head to try to understand this, although i think i follow the gist of the underlying physics.

lol i think it's just a bit of geometry along with appreciating characteristics of fabric .

here's a refined drawing :



i'm hoping to illustrate here the wedge of fabric at the back of the shoulder that the wrapped version tailors out of the garment . the vertical line at the edge is the front panel .

since you have a few in this style we can perform an investigation : lay one of your sweaters out on a flat surface as cleanly as possible ( it might work better to pull the sweater inside out ) , so that the front and back panels sit directly on top of each other . then feel through the shoulder to find the wedge that i've illustrated to get a sense of the ease that has been removed from the rear panel .

looking again at the drawings now imagine the sleeve fabric . sleeves and sleeve heads are almost always patterned as symmetrical and joined where the tallest part of the sleeve meets the corresponding tallest part of the panels ( look at your garment ! ) , thus notice how in the wrapped version the pattern pushes a symmetrical sleeve towards the back ! not ideal .

imho the wrapped shoulder pattern is good for sleeveless knits ( and WL does use it for this ) but looking at these drawings i'd really like to see a garment where the panels are reversed so the scoop comes out of the front instead . maybe i'll make one up and post the results

i'll edit to add : re the trash comment i'm just being a bit polemical , if something works then it works but i'm trying to address your op from the standpoint of patterning

 

[double00]

right now i'm wearing polo , it's a navy cableknit shawl cardigan and it goes down to like hip pocket length with the woven leather buttons . heavy and cozy it's a big hug . wool so i've got the rugby shirt on under .

the armscye on this is more or less a drop shoulder , it's got the little diagonal jog at both the bottom of the sleeve and the body side otherwise it's just a right angle joined together .with the cables and ribbing it's very 'tubey' but good . can draw if needed .

as for the shoulder there is no shoulder seam ! the fabric is just run up and over . so there is a lot of natural ease through and the garment is encouraged to hang forward on me . seams on a knit are like woven straps , they structure and constrain .

so maybe specifically look for / try on alternatives like raglan , or saddle shoulder . both of which are very tradly cm . drop shoulder is terrific for spongier fabrics like brioche or a heavy ribbing . i'm really enjoying this convo btw it's very styfv nerdliness !

if we are talking about a jersey-type v neck like your navy sweater and maybe you want to use it as a midlayer with a jacket / coat and then work all day in the office over a dress shirt and tie ? favor ease ; go saddle shoulder imho , a very honest construction . another option is to choose a ribbed or cabled or otherwise stretchier textured fabric but i'm trying to stick to op .

polo's cableknit cashmere crewnecks don't have shoulder seams , they are the same front to back except for the collar . that works , in large part b/c the ribbed / cabled fabric is very forgiving and gracious . great garment .

i'll offer another idea : gently wash or rinse and specifically block out your sweater . don't target the shoulder seam itself instead block the back out a bit - try to pull the center of the y out , see how close you can comfortably get to 3/4 of an inch or so out towards the true shoulder holding everything else ( read : the armpit and collar ) constant . rinse and then very wet lay out on a toweled surface , block , and leave alone until dry . if it works you will have a new sweater but it may snap back after a bit . if it does work just remember to handwash and renew the measurements . cheers !

 

[elgar]

you're not really showing the back seams but i can more or less see what is happening .

it's the shoulder fashioning , it's maddeningly common to see , i suspect it is easy / economical to make up .

the back panel ends up very narrow with that weird sloped fashioning and doesn't give a true shoulder on that side , meanwhile the front panels wrap back to connect to the seam . that really narrows the yoke of the sweater and i believe that is why it rides up and back and why your shirt is trying to turn the tag out .

i'd find a sweater style with more patterned ease through the shoulders , there are plenty of options but i would avoid the style where the narrow back panel is almost like a tiny raglan and then the front has to wrap over to accommodate . to me that's a lazy pattern and kneecaps the ease required to fit a normal male physiquist es so called fully fashioned Style.

you're not really showing the back seams but i can more or less see what is happening .

it's the shoulder fashioning , it's maddeningly common to see , i suspect it is easy / economical to make up .

the back panel ends up very narrow with that weird sloped fashioning and doesn't give a true shoulder on that side , meanwhile the front panels wrap back to connect to the seam . that really narrows the yoke of the sweater and i believe that is why it rides up and back and why your shirt is trying to turn the tag out .

What you described ist the so called fully fashioned knitting where the individual pieces are more engineered so that each garment piece is made with no extra fabric and the pieces are basically knitted together at the seams.In this case each piece is shaped using techniques specific to knitwear by using special stitches, making lines of loops shrink and grow depending on where more length is needed. When you knit by hand this is essentially the process that you are doing although in commercial production it would be done by knitting machines.

This is an oversimplification of the two processes of course, but in general fully fashioned knitwear is a more expensive process which has flatter seams.

 

[double00]

What you described ist the so called fully fashioned knitting where the individual pieces are more engineered so that each garment piece is made with no extra fabric and the pieces are basically knitted together at the seams.In this case each piece is shaped using techniques specific to knitwear by using special stitches, making lines of loops shrink and grow depending on where more length is needed. When you knit by hand this is essentially the process that you are doing although in commercial production it would be done by knitting machines.

This is an oversimplification of the two processes of course, but in general fully fashioned knitwear is a more expensive process which has flatter seams.

yes i am indeed talking about fully fashioned knitting .