Is it acceptable to wear a button-down oxford with a tie?

[NachoBroadway]

I always thought this was great if you have American clients, minus the tie bar & the tie pop

 

[NAMOR]

yes

 

[k4lnamja]

I learn more and more about style everyday by visiting this site.

I always assumed you needed to wear a tie with a button down oxford. I guess this is the opposite.

Let me ask you this then. If you aren't supposed to wear a tie with a button down oxford, then what is up with this "collar roll" everyone is trying to do?

Cheers

 

[Frihed89]

Originally Posted by k4lnamja

I learn more and more about style everyday by visiting this site.

I always assumed you needed to wear a tie with a button down oxford. I guess this is the opposite.

Let me ask you this then. If you aren't supposed to wear a tie with a button down oxford, then what is up with this "collar roll" everyone is trying to do?

Cheers

No, you don't need a tie with a button-down oxford shirt...for casual wear.

Yes, you can wear a tie with a button down oxford shirt with a suit or sports jacket, anywhere except central London, which is only second to Denmark as having the worst-dressed crowd of professionals in the world! I am truly amazed by what I see people wearing.

 

[landshark]

Originally Posted by Ianiceman

Sidebar discussion - how does 'US Polo Association' and their polo pony icon get away with being so close to Lauren? AFAIK there is no affiliation and they are a cheap knock off company trying to steal some of RL cache but I'm surprised there werent law suits galore over that.

Because people who would buy USPA were never RL Polo customers to begin with.

 

[Mr. Lee]

Of course it is, especially for a young guy and with a blazer. The older you get and the dressier the suit, well, then you move into spreads. Don't give it a second thought. In fact, I when I equipped my 24-year old son for his first job, I got him button downs even for his regular blue and gray suits so he wouldn't stick out like a fop in the conservative town he works in. Further, even many old fart Trad guys like lawyers will exclusively wear button downs, usually from Brooks, even to court and such. Still considered correct.

 

[cncrd]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lee

Of course it is, especially for a young guy and with a blazer. The older you get and the dressier the suit, well, then you move into spreads. Don't give it a second thought. In fact, I when I equipped my 24-year old son for his first job, I got him button downs even for his regular blue and gray suits so he wouldn't stick out like a fop in the conservative town he works in. Further, even many old fart Trad guys like lawyers will exclusively wear button downs, usually from Brooks, even to court and such. Still considered correct.

Originally Posted by SkinnyGoomba

I was under the impression this was a particularly common english countryside look, especially with a wool tie and under a sportcoat.

I dont really care either way and will continue wearing them.

I wear button down collars with suits, it's american. In fact a great majority of american businessmen wear nothing other than a button down collar.

Warren Buffett is not exactly a sartorial role model but he's certainly an American businessman.

Both of these. In the South, especially among the legal community and pretty much anyone who grew up here thirty or more years ago and is at all sensitive to what's considered "traditional", this is the standard business uniform. I've been to tons of meetings all over the region in which everyone wore suits, but I was the only person with a spread collar, and I got the distinct impression that the spread was considered "flashy".

 

[radicaldog]

Duh, yes.

 

[ck212]

Yes. It's absolutely acceptable to wear a tie with a button-down oxford and blazer or sport jacket. However, I personally would never wear a button-down oxford with a suit. The reason being is that a button-down oxford was originally created as a sport shirt for polo players during the Victorian Age of polo. It is in fact the original polo shirt. The collar buttons were added to long sleeve button downs of oxford material in order to hold down the collar from flapping in the wind during play. Additionally, the oxford material was used because it is a thicker, heavier and more durable material that can better hold up during the riggers of play. This style was introduced to the American business community in the late 19th century by John Brooks, an early President of Brooks Brothers. He saw the shirts being used in polo matches on a trip he made to England and decided to produce, sell and market the style in the United States.

Since then and in modern times the button-down oxford has become common in the American business community even though its origins were of a sporting nature. How and why a sporting shirt became to be considered formal attire I do not know. However, I would venture to guess that this came to be because of what is considered acceptable attire in a "country club" environment where a jacket and tie are required in the formal areas of many traditional clubs. The polo players of the Victorian era also wore a short cropped tie during play. So one could assume that after a match the players would simply put on a blazer or sport jacket to enter the club house and still be within the required dress code. Over time this "country club" attire began appearing in office and professional environments and has since evolved into what some would consider formal and/or appropriate in the business world.

With that said I personally would only wear a tie with button-down oxford with slacks and a blazer and/or sport jacket in less formal business situations or while at a county club that has a jacket and tie dress code and never with a suit. However, that is just me and I have noticed that there are regional differences in this regard. The American South and Mid-west tend to wear the button down oxford more often in business settings then do those from other regions and it is considered in these regions to be a more conservative dress. I would once again take a guess to the reason being because of the conservative nature and wide appeal of the Brooks Brothers brand who introduced the button down oxford sporting shirt amongst its traditional suiting wear so long ago.

This leads to the question, if a button-down oxford is the original polo shirt then what is the short sleeve shirts made popular by Ralph Lauren? These are in fact tennis shirts. The tennis shirt was first introduced by the French champion Rene Lacoste in the mid-1920's. Prior to this tennis players also wore a long sleeve shirt and tie during play. Rene Lacoste changed this by wearing his new tennis shirt in order to improve his play and comfort. Since this time both tennis players, golfers and even polo players have enthusiastically endorsed the style and the style has even led to wear outside of the sporting environment. To this day the tennis shirt can be seen at most golf clubs and at most polo clubs as a required form of dress during play.

So why do we call it a polo shirt? Because in the early 1970's Ralph Lauren launched his company and his brand Polo. The tennis shirt was included in the original line along with the famous polo symbol on the chest. Polo players at that time and to this day wear the tennis shirt as common dress on the pitch. Do to the enormous success of Ralph Lauren and the Polo brand the style has mistakenly become know as a "polo shirt".

A response to the following:

Sidebar discussion - how does 'US Polo Association' and their polo pony icon get away with being so close to Lauren? AFAIK there is no affiliation and they are a cheap knock off company trying to steal some of RL cache but I'm surprised there werent law suits galore over that.

Polo, the sport, is considered by many to be the oldest organized sport in the world. The official governing body of polo in the United States is called the United States Polo Association and was established in 1890. The reason for the existence of the association is to promote the sport and establish the rules and etiquette of play. The US Polo Association was not established as a commercial venture. However, the Association does license its logo, image and likeness to third parties for commercial use. Eighty-two (82) years after the establishment of the Association, Ralph Lauren created a commercial brand named Polo in which he sold tennis shirts with a polo player logo.

So that could lead to the question of who is knocking off who? A well established and traditional organization with a 123 year history that has a greater purpose then to sell tennis shirts or a comparatively modern clothing brand that has strictly a commercial interest? And who is stealing who's cache? Polo is an old, traditional, expensive and elite sport that has roughly 5,000 active members in the United States. With the sport comes a certain lifestyle and privilege that only a few can achieve. Ralph Lauren cleverly recognized the appeal of the lifestyle associated with the sport and wanted to apply this "cache" to his commercial venture which has impressively grown into a semi-luxury mass market brand. Of which the vast majority of individuals who buy and wear the Polo brand have nothing to do with the sport.

However, I can see where you're coming from. As an avid polo player and one who appreciates finer clothing I'm torn between the two. The Ralph Lauren Polo brand does indeed make a far superior product in terms of quality and style. The US Polo Association (the original Polo brand IMHO) licenses its name to third parties and who in my opinion have done a horrendous job in terms of quality and brand placement. And yes, there have been "law suits galore" made by Ralph Lauren's Polo brand which to me seems a bit counter intuitive as he has attacked the very sport, organization and lifestyle who's "cache" has allowed him to achieve his success. Without the sport of polo, Ralph Lauren's Polo brand simply would not have existed. However, without Ralph Lauren's Polo brand the sport of polo would have continued to be played and enjoyed by a select few as it always has been for hundred's of years.

 

[JLibourel]

^Well, given the fact that the lounge or "business" suit evolved from country and beachwear not much before the advent of the BD collar shirt, I don't see how this can be considered a sartorial mismatch on historical grounds. If we are going to go back to the 1890s, no, I wouldn't wear BD collar shirt with my frock coat, either.

 

[Ianiceman]

Interesting perspectives ck212. I don't really have a dog in the fight but didn't know that USPolo was actually afliated with the sport itself. Thought it was just a knock off brand. Ve also seen 'Becerly Hills Polo Association' who also use a polo playing emblem IIRC.

 

[recondite]

Always, and especially when the oxford cloth is a type of pinpoint or pindot.

^Well, given the fact that the lounge or "business" suit evolved from country and beachwear not much before the advent of the BD collar shirt, I don't see how this can be considered a sartorial mismatch on historical grounds. If we are going to go back to the 1890s, no, I wouldn't wear BD collar shirt with my frock coat, either.

Exactly. I guess many also fail to understand that appellation of oxford cloth shirts has the same history as the appellation of oxford shoes. Both were violent reactions to more formal attire that was at one time demanded of university students.

Applying the rational of those that believe oxford cloth is eminently informal, only balmoral boots should be satorially acceptable with lounge suits. This would be interesting since lounge suits were, at one time, considered a form of sportswear, acceptable for a match of lawn tennis and such, not to mention the indoor sport of lounging.

A white pinpoint oxford cloth buttondown, is the OneShirt if you never leave North America. And always correct with attire below the level of black tie. If worn with religious fervor, certain audiences might mistake one for an Ivy Leaguer of some sort until you fail the secret handshake.

 

[Occams Razor]

Too casual and not for business. Do you see anyone on television who dresses for the part with it?

Williams, Pelly, Holt, Lauer, Leno, Letterman, Fallon, Kimmel, Sports commentators, et. al?

Anyone beside Chris Matthews and John Boehner? A very "odd couple", I'll admit.

Use hidden button down under collar as an alternative if you must.

Just as close a fashion faux pas as you can get.

Remember, spread collar needs a half-Windsor at least.

 

[recondite]

Too casual and not for business. Do you see anyone on television who dresses for the part with it?

Williams, Pelly, Holt, Lauer, Leno, Letterman, Fallon, Kimmel, Sports commentators, et. al?

Anyone beside Chris Matthews and John Boehner? A very "odd couple", I'll admit.

Use hidden button down under collar as an alternative if you must.

Just as close a fashion faux pas as you can get.

Remember, spread collar needs a half-Windsor at least.

Seriously?

One look at the ties the worn by most of the above jokers, and the last thing one should advise it is to use them as a model of what shirt might be acceptable to wear, much less which suit.

They are the sin qua non of fashion faux pas every time they are on camera.

Do some boardroom business in D.C., Boston, or Charleston, and you'll never be out of place with a button down collar shirt worn with a suit and tie, assuming the shirt is white, pale blue, or some basic stripe on white. In fact, they may invite you to play some squash later in the day if you have time. You won't get a second glance for wearing one with a tie in NYC, Dallas, Chicago, or San Fransisco business meeting either. In L.A. they'll wonder if you are headed to a job interview or funeral later in the day, but mostly because of the tie you're wearing.

London and Bern would be different, and you might be taken for a dilettante in some business circles, but not entertainment or fashion.

 

[Occams Razor]

Didn't mean to make you upset, sorry.

I do like your "however,
"Having found a style of dress that accommodates one's deficiencies while enhancing one's best attributes, one has had the great fortune to have been considered fashionable twice in this lifetime." - r

If you didn't like my examples try Obama, Dimon, Immelt, Pandit, et al.

Okay, I will give you that curmudgeon Buffet.

I am a vision of sartorial splendor.
-30-