DB jacket proportions - lapel width & button position

[LaoHu]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

There is no pure Ivy League.

Are you a counter-revolutionary?

 

[voxsartoria]

Fantastic, LH.


- B

 

[apropos]

Originally Posted by George

What was your debate with 'foo about...? I've tried to follow the debate but got lost. I'm genuinely interested, I'm not taking the piss.
It's a real long story, but I'll try. In a nutshell, aj_del asked for advice re: styling a new DB, and posted up a photo of his exsiting bespoke DB. Foo said it looked 'no better than RTW', and that he should find a new tailor with a house style more sympathico to his personal style. (He later did a backflip and thought the same garment had a 'button placement' that was 'very good, as are the general proportions of the jacket.') I disagreed, saying that there were tailors out there who were more flexible, I personally didn't need an inflexible house style to necessarily restrict my choices, and clearly that there are members here who patronised a flexible tailor who allowed them to make more decisions and have come up with good results. He disagreed that the results were good (or even likely to be good), denigrated the results of the HK folk, accused me of saying that Rubinaccis could be copied at Chan, followed that up by saying that it was 'obnoxious' to suggest that a tailor that was 1/4 the price could execute something similar, and off we went. I tried to have a discussion with the foo, but it is clear that he is one of those folk who skim through what you are saying, make up their minds about what they think you are saying, and then respond to you. For example, he kept insisting that his Rubinacci style was not able to be copied at Chan (or any other tailor), when no one here even put that forth. I tried to point out his doubletalk, but ultimately failed to stop him. Here's another issue that was covered: the role of Mariano Rubinacci in the bespoke process. Mariano (a 'very stylish' man, according to foo) assumes the role of a stylist and 'advises' his clients. Clearly Rubinacci clients are being led down a certain stylistic path if - as Foo asserts - that a Rubinacci garment is readily identifiable, no matter who it is on. I point out that if you remove this middleman/facilitator (Mariano), you have the opportunity to make more decisions in the making of your bespoke suit. To which the foo replies:

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Doing a task alone often means you ultimately exhibit less control. Why? Because when you do things alone, your efforts are spread thinner. Thus, you often wind up getting less of what you want although there was no one else there to influence you. For example, the U.S. President uses all sorts of staff to help him accumulate information and explore possible solutions. Does he have less control over the country because of that? The answer is obvious when we try to imagine what it would be like if he did not have their help. A blind man needs help to cross the street, no? Same idea. He actually has less control over his movement and survival without the aid of a dog or a helpful stranger. You are not a tailor--thus, you are effectively blind in many ways when it comes to tailoring. For more "control," you may need to trust his discretion on many stylistic issues--and you ultimately do, whether you know it or not.
...which is particularly interesting because aside from showcasing the mental gymnastics (rationalisations) that the foo regularly pulls off with himself (bepoke suit designing is analogous to being the president of the USA), he has pointed out his role in the bespoke process to date: he is the blind man he describes, who needs help from a seeing-eye dog (Mariano, ostensibly even though he isn't a tailor) to cross the street. What he doesn't realise, and appears to be unable to realise, is that others here can actually... see.

 

[GuidoWongolini]

Originally Posted by Slewfoot

Then again, perhaps it was difficult for me since I asked for my suit to be a cross between Rubinacci, Steed and all 5 MBT's out there while handing him 3,287 photos for him to copy. Perhaps I should bring more photos next time so he's not confused.
- Maybe we all meet for dim-sum?

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

Despos still maintains this tradition. A strap hangs from the ceiling on one of his many three-way mirrors so he can fit you perfectly for standing on in a train going to a Cubs home game.
- B
- Most Exerent

Originally Posted by apropos

It's a real long story, but I'll try.

In a nutshell, aj_del asked for advice re: styling a new DB, and posted up a photo of his exsiting bespoke DB.

Foo said it looked 'no better than RTW', and that he should find a new tailor with a house style more sympathico to his personal style. (He later did a backflip and thought the same garment had a 'button placement' that was 'very good, as are the general proportions of the jacket.')

I disagreed, saying that there were tailors out there who were more flexible, I personally didn't need an inflexible house style to necessarily restrict my choices, and clearly that there are members here who patronised a flexible tailor who allowed them to make more decisions and have come up with good results.

He disagreed that the results were good (or even likely to be good), denigrated the results of the HK folk, accused me of saying that Rubinaccis could be copied at Chan, followed that up by saying that it was 'obnoxious' to suggest that a tailor that was 1/4 the price could execute something similar, and off we went.

I tried to have a discussion with the foo, but it is clear that he is one of those folk who skim through what you are saying, make up their minds about what they think you are saying, and then respond to you. For example, he kept insisting that his Rubinacci style was not able to be copied at Chan (or any other tailor), when no one here even put that forth. I tried to point out his doubletalk, but ultimately failed to stop him.

Here's another issue that was covered: the role of Mariano Rubinacci in the bespoke process.

Mariano (a 'very stylish' man, according to foo) assumes the role of a stylist and 'advises' his clients. Clearly Rubinacci clients are being led down a certain stylistic path if - as Foo asserts - that a Rubinacci garment is readily identifiable, no matter who it is on.

I point out that if you remove this middleman/facilitator (Mariano), you have the opportunity to make more decisions in the making of your bespoke suit. To which the foo replies:

...which is particularly interesting because aside from showcasing the mental gymnastics (rationalisations) that the foo regularly pulls off with himself (bepoke suit designing is analogous to being the president of the USA), he has pointed out his role in the bespoke process to date: he is the blind man he describes, who needs help from a seeing-eye dog (Mariano, ostensibly even though he isn't a tailor) to cross the street.

What he doesn't realise, and appears to be unable to realise, is that others here can actually... see.
- Most Exerent summary.. LET"S EAT!

 

[Douglas]

I get that people don't like how foo looks, and that's fine. But I'll never get why people are such dickheads towards him.

 

[maomao1980]

Originally Posted by Douglas

I get that people don't like how foo looks, and that's fine. But I'll never get why people are such dickheads towards him.

Quite the opposite is true I think. Most generally love his looks and are nice to him.

 

[sho'nuff]

Originally Posted by apropos

I have drawn a line through the tie knot on both models to provide a common baseline for comparison, as shoulder lines or whatnot are less helpful here due to them being angled with natural movement.

Note the different proportions - especially the length of the arms on both models. Interesting that the jacket hems end at similar heights. Note also the difference in buttoning points, which I pointed out earlier. The blue jacket clearly has its entire buttoning stance shifted lower.

This one is good enough to warrant a revisit.

You couldn't even work out that the entire buttoning stance was shifted down by a low buttoning point on the blue jacket. There were flags that could have alerted you to that which you missed - aside from the one I mentioned, the blue jacket was not near being 'bisected' evenly height-wise by the top button. Compare how the top button on the blue jacket bisects the jacket when compared to the grey/pink windowpane.


apropos the guy in the second photo is a little taller/bigger guy so the photo was adjusted to fit into the frame (you can tell by the size of the two guys' heads. so the proportions of everything will be a little bit off)

 

[aj_del]

Sorry for the necropost, but can someone guess whats the width of the lapels in this pic. In my previous DB the width was 4.25" and I asked it to be increased to 4.75" but am now thinking that I should have asked for 5". I want have broad lapels but not costumey. The lapels in this pics seem to be .25" too costumey. I know this kind of question is moronic from the senior member's POV, but can someone answer the simple q. "guess whats the width of the lapels in this pic"

 

[edmorel]

If I had to guess and you include the peaks, those are at least 5 inches.

 

[Slewfoot]

Those seem a bit wider than I'd prefer. I don't think the width makes them look costumey, but the sharp-as-a-knife super extended lapel points seem to do so.

 

[kcc]

Originally Posted by aj_del

Since this discussion seems to be getting back to the point of DBs, and their proportion I thought I would take a fresh picture of my DB and get some more feedback.

I like the look of this DB; the shoulders aren't excessively wide. Not sure why you're interested in changing tailoring service. BTW, LH is not for everyone. One can find suitable alternatives that provide soft tailoring e.g., Panico, the former head tailor of LH.

 

[aj_del]

^^ Those are the 4.25" lapels which I have asked to be increased to 4.75"

 

[maomao1980]

It's not the width at the peak, but rather the combination of the gorge height and belly that gives DB lapels their heft.

 

[teddieriley]

You don't want the peaks to start encroaching your shoulders. 5" is pushing it, if not over.

 

[aj_del]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

I am getting a khaki cotton suit made first which is going to be a DB with patch pockets. I have asked the tailor to cut the lapels .5" more than the lapels in the blue DB above. I will see how it looks at the first fitting.

The total cost of the cloth for the suit was around 65 USD so I thought I would experiment with button position and lapel width with it.

He showed me a Scabal cotton as well which was 225 USD a meter which was more than H&S Super 130s. Needless to say, I passed.