Bespoke Trouser Pricing

[jonathanS]

This happened to me quite a bit.
A customer would buy 1 shirt and I would see them years later. They would admit that they had sent it of to be copied for a lot less money in Asia.

Here's the thing about luxire shirts - theyre not all that cheaper than bespoke from naples. I think theyre like 200 dollars vs. 300 euro - yes, theres savings, but not enough to make it worth the while. Whereas trousers are like 1300 vs 400

 

[C MattssonJH]

“Sustainably”

“The investigation, which was shown to brands supplied by the factories in late May, included allegations of potential forced labor among TAL’s 2,600 migrant workers, linked to payment of high recruitment fees in their home countries to guarantee their jobs.”

A Close Look at a Fashion Supply Chain Is Not Pretty (Published 2020)

A new report on factories in Malaysia that create products for Brooks Brothers, Levi’s, LL Bean and others examines the high prices workers pay for their jobs.

www.nytimes.com

Thanks for sharing. I was with Roger Lee a couple of weeks ago and I know from the corporate perspective there is a big effort on really trying to do the right thing. They know it is in their best interest. I was not aware of what happened in Malaysia at those factories as we’re not involved with them. It was disheartening to read. I also feel if you read that article with perspective you can see that some of the practices stem from recruiters (not TAL) who are extracting huge fees and we can all see the evil in that… it’s as if a company here in the states was hiring someone and a headhunter told the recruit to pay $10,000 and they’d get them the job. There are people who might be willing to pay that fee and keep it on the down low and the company hiring might not be aware. If you’re desperate you might do anything. Nonetheless, I appreciate you enlightening me. I’m always willing to learn.

 

[Shirtmaven]

There are plenty of horror stories of factories they hold on to the passports of guest workers. They usually can't even leave the factory campus.
@C MattssonJH j hillburn copied the tom James model..pressure your friends and customers to purchase.
My favorite disagreement with a Hillburn rep was how proud they were that fabrics were from Monti of Italy.
Sure. I don't think Monti even weaves in Italy anymore. Czech Republic and India. The fabric from Monti India is still nice. Why would Hillburn pay more for 80/2 ply pinpoint woven and shipped from Europe, when the same quality shipped from India is half the price..
Just because TAL makes a huge portion of shirts sold in the USA, doesn't make them high quality.
Americans are now used to taped seams and fabrics coated with chemicals...

 

[Crispyj]

There are plenty of horror stories of factories they hold on to the passports of guest workers. They usually can't even leave the factory campus.
@C MattssonJH j hillburn copied the tom James model..pressure your friends and customers to purchase.
My favorite disagreement with a Hillburn rep was how proud they were that fabrics were from Monti of Italy.
Sure. I don't think Monti even weaves in Italy anymore. Czech Republic and India. The fabric from Monti India is still nice. Why would Hillburn pay more for 80/2 ply pinpoint woven and shipped from Europe, when the same quality shipped from India is half the price..
Just because TAL makes a huge portion of shirts sold in the USA, doesn't make them high quality.
Americans are now used to taped seams and fabrics coated with chemicals...

Mr. Shirtmaven, I dm'd you on Instagram. You have some nice deadstock fabrics 👍

 

[Shirtmaven]

Mr. Shirtmaven, I dm'd you on Instagram. You have some nice deadstock fabrics 👍

I have some vintage fabrics that are quite nice. But you have to like stripes...or odd colors in solids

 

[Smlaz]

There are plenty of horror stories of factories they hold on to the passports of guest workers. They usually can't even leave the factory campus.
@C MattssonJH j hillburn copied the tom James model..pressure your friends and customers to purchase.
My favorite disagreement with a Hillburn rep was how proud they were that fabrics were from Monti of Italy.
Sure. I don't think Monti even weaves in Italy anymore. Czech Republic and India. The fabric from Monti India is still nice. Why would Hillburn pay more for 80/2 ply pinpoint woven and shipped from Europe, when the same quality shipped from India is half the price..
Just because TAL makes a huge portion of shirts sold in the USA, doesn't make them high quality.
Americans are now used to taped seams and fabrics coated with chemicals...

Americans (most, excluding SFers) want the easiest, cheapest thing. Remember that old Maxim “Good, Fast, and Cheap: pick two…” The chemicals are ok cuz the shirt is “no-iron” even though it still needs an ironing out of the dryer. I’ve had to go for the cheaper stuff of late, and Brooks Bros. vs Paul Frederick vs Dept store (Lauren, TH, etc) differences are de minimus. No reason to buy a Brooks shirt when a PF will do. Besides, nobody out there cuts a 30 or 31 sleeve😱

 

[Smlaz]

Americans (most, excluding SFers) want the easiest, cheapest thing. Remember that old Maxim “Good, Fast, and Cheap: pick two…” The chemicals are ok cuz the shirt is “no-iron” even though it still needs an ironing out of the dryer. I’ve had to go for the cheaper stuff of late, and Brooks Bros. vs Paul Frederick vs Dept store (Lauren, TH, etc) differences are de minimus. No reason to buy a Brooks shirt when a PF will do. Besides, nobody out there cuts a 30 or 31 sleeve😱

Except you Carl!

 

[C MattssonJH]

There are plenty of horror stories of factories they hold on to the passports of guest workers. They usually can't even leave the factory campus.
@C MattssonJH j hillburn copied the tom James model..pressure your friends and customers to purchase.
My favorite disagreement with a Hillburn rep was how proud they were that fabrics were from Monti of Italy.
Sure. I don't think Monti even weaves in Italy anymore. Czech Republic and India. The fabric from Monti India is still nice. Why would Hillburn pay more for 80/2 ply pinpoint woven and shipped from Europe, when the same quality shipped from India is half the price..
Just because TAL makes a huge portion of shirts sold in the USA, doesn't make them high quality.
Americans are now used to taped seams and fabrics coated with chemicals...

To address the NYT article directly - the issue that it should have focused on, was the exploitation by some agents in rural areas in the countries where the migrant workers come from. Some, try and take advantage of the workers who are so keen to work for factories like TAL, that they overpay them to get them to get recruited. This is a real problem and very difficult for TAL to stop as the workers are told not to discuss this with their new employer and by the time, they do it is too late. TAL has tried various ways to monitor and limit the use of these agents but as you can imagine this is difficult.

In the Vietnam factory that JH uses VTG, the situation is different in that most of the workers come from the surrounding towns and villages and so all the recruiting is done by TAL management. This factory is LEED certified to the gold standard which speaks to TAL’s commitment to sustainable building practices.

I just really don’t like a lot of misinformation that’s in accurate and clearly incorrect. My information comes fromreliable sources have been to these factories and experienced them as representatives of Brooks Brothers and J Hilburn. I truly respect anyone that wants to buy fully bespoke tailored trousers that are made by an individual who is willing to take the time to cut and sew one garment. It is an art form. For many others that is an expense they can’t bear but they still want to look good.

 

[JohnMRobie]

To address the NYT article directly - the issue that it should have focused on, was the exploitation by some agents in rural areas in the countries where the migrant workers come from. Some, try and take advantage of the workers who are so keen to work for factories like TAL, that they overpay them to get them to get recruited. This is a real problem and very difficult for TAL to stop as the workers are told not to discuss this with their new employer and by the time, they do it is too late. TAL has tried various ways to monitor and limit the use of these agents but as you can imagine this is difficult.

In the Vietnam factory that JH uses VTG, the situation is different in that most of the workers come from the surrounding towns and villages and so all the recruiting is done by TAL management. This factory is LEED certified to the gold standard which speaks to TAL’s commitment to sustainable building practices.

I just really don’t like a lot of misinformation that’s in accurate and clearly incorrect. My information comes fromreliable sources have been to these factories and experienced them as representatives of Brooks Brothers and J Hilburn. I truly respect anyone that wants to buy fully bespoke tailored trousers that are made by an individual who is willing to take the time to cut and sew one garment. It is an art form. For many others that is an expense they can’t bear but they still want to look good.

“No, no. Our company doesn’t use the factories that exploit workers. We just pay the parent company that exploits workers in its factories” isn’t the rebuttal you think it is.

 

[C MattssonJH]

“No, no. Our company doesn’t use the factories that exploit workers. We just pay the parent company that exploits workers in its factories” isn’t the rebuttal you think it is.

Why are you doing this? Let’s just share information and not make this negative. Unless you have been to the factories and can personally verify it stay in your lane. I am sure you have great experience buying tailored clothing. Share that here. I am truly trying to keep the conversation positive and accurate. I do have personal experience enough to to say I am confident in my conversations with the people who actually work in the TAL factory - they attend our meetings in person and I don’t think the company is paying them to lie to us. I care deeply about sustainability and do not want to part of the problem by supporting unethical practices. This is starting to feel like a personal attack and I am not on these threads for that.

 

[Shirtmaven]

Why are you doing this? Let’s just share information and not make this negative. Unless you have been to the factories and can personally verify it stay in your lane. I am sure you have great experience buying tailored clothing. Share that here. I am truly trying to keep the conversation positive and accurate. I do have personal experience enough to to say I am confident in my conversations with the people who actually work in the TAL factory - they attend our meetings in person and I don’t think the company is paying them to lie to us. I care deeply about sustainability and do not want to part of the problem by supporting unethical practices. This is starting to feel like a personal attack and I am not on these threads for that.

It is not you personally that is being attacked. It is your defense of a somewhat boring MTM clothing company with a playbook on how to sell boring clothing to people who would never visit styleforum.
You drank the Kool aid and you like how it tastes. I guess you make a decent living on your commissions.
Most J Hillburners react the same way you do.
There are people here who would rather pay more for a garment where they have met the person who actually is directly involved as opposed to those who would pay less for a garment that has been made in a low wage factory in Asia, where all you did was punch some numbers into your laptop. Sure, you held the tape measure and explained why a tab on The back left pocket is classier then a button thru.
It's nothing personal..
Come to NYC and visit my shop and you will understand.

 

[comrade]

I doubt that he will understand.

 

[jonathanS]

Why are you doing this? Let’s just share information and not make this negative. Unless you have been to the factories and can personally verify it stay in your lane. I am sure you have great experience buying tailored clothing. Share that here. I am truly trying to keep the conversation positive and accurate. I do have personal experience enough to to say I am confident in my conversations with the people who actually work in the TAL factory - they attend our meetings in person and I don’t think the company is paying them to lie to us. I care deeply about sustainability and do not want to part of the problem by supporting unethical practices. This is starting to feel like a personal attack and I am not on these threads for that.

My guy, you’ve drank the kool aid. It’s like a mlm marketer going in front of shark tank & having no clue. I tried being nice about it above.

 

[stuffedsuperdud]

Why are you doing this? Let’s just share information and not make this negative. Unless you have been to the factories and can personally verify it stay in your lane. I am sure you have great experience buying tailored clothing. Share that here. I am truly trying to keep the conversation positive and accurate. I do have personal experience enough to to say I am confident in my conversations with the people who actually work in the TAL factory - they attend our meetings in person and I don’t think the company is paying them to lie to us. I care deeply about sustainability and do not want to part of the problem by supporting unethical practices. This is starting to feel like a personal attack and I am not on these threads for that.

I wish you hadn't said "sustainable" in the first place as that seems to be the source of your current troubles on this thread. I'm guessing it's in the adcopy the marketing team provided you and it probably has a positive influence on the kind of guy that goes to J. Hillburn, but most enthusiasts know that the S-word is at best a sketchy milieu of half truths, greenwashing, denial, and exchanging one poison for another. In this particular case, you seem to be be equating it with ethical labor practices, when IIRC it typically refers to minimizing the environmental impact of the textiles and fashion industries. I am sure any large clothing company makes an effort to clean things up, if for no other reason than that it's bad PR when a subcontracted factory burns down with everyone inside, or when a river full of chemicals from cotton production gives everyone in a village downstream Stage V super-cancer, but it's probably not possible to get it all right with organizations as large as TAL.

I'm trying not to be judgey, but some of you guys here taking the piss on a hapless mainline sales rep who somehow wandered into Thunderdome might want to take a look in the mirror. The most popular threads on this site are for vendors who take things you used to get have to save up for to get from Drake's or whatever, and give you something just as good at half the price, because they use a 3rd World supply chain instead of a bunch of old people in UK/ITA. Do you really think in the murkiness of all this that they are free of the issues you're criticizing TAL customers for? Hell, even for clothes made in a country you approve of, where did all the raw materials come from? How do you know the cotton in a Turnbull and Asser shirt didn't come from the same polluted place as the cotton in a Van Heusen? We can't do much to change global sales/manufacturing operations, but one thing that works is probably to buy less and pay extra for items that came from shorter more transparent supply chains, which no one on SF is going to be doing, because this is our drug.

The J Hillburn (or any other MTM type operation for guys who don't care about clothes) vs. bespoke = Applebee's vs. Peter Lugar comparison is apt but perhaps not in the way intended. It's apt in that most days, Applebee's will hit the spot for a good price for most people, while Peter Lugar isn't particularly magical and will generally elicit nothing much beyond a "well it turned out pretty good I guess...even at that price...I guess I don't have buyer's remorse...time to post to IG!" For every SF dork asking about the difference between Henry Poole vs. Huntsman, or if Mr. Tan is better at bellied lapels than Mr. Chau in that baotao alley in HK, there are probably a billion white collar drones who don't care about the difference between Glen Urquhart vs Glen Plaid vs PoW or structured vs. draped, and just need to look trustworthy and boring going into a meeting with a lead or a client. This is for them. What's the use in pouncing all over that?

 

[C MattssonJH]

I wish you hadn't said "sustainable" in the first place as that seems to be the source of your current troubles on this thread. I'm guessing it's in the adcopy the marketing team provided you and it probably has a positive influence on the kind of guy that goes to J. Hillburn, but most enthusiasts know that the S-word is at best a sketchy milieu of half truths, greenwashing, denial, and exchanging one poison for another. In this particular case, you seem to be be equating it with ethical labor practices, when IIRC it typically refers to minimizing the environmental impact of the textiles and fashion industries. I am sure any large clothing company makes an effort to clean things up, if for no other reason than that it's bad PR when a subcontracted factory burns down with everyone inside, or when a river full of chemicals from cotton production gives everyone in a village downstream Stage V super-cancer, but it's probably not possible to get it all right with organizations as large as TAL.

I'm trying not to be judgey, but some of you guys here taking the piss on a hapless mainline sales rep who somehow wandered into Thunderdome might want to take a look in the mirror. The most popular threads on this site are for vendors who take things you used to get have to save up for to get from Drake's or whatever, and give you something just as good at half the price, because they use a 3rd World supply chain instead of a bunch of old people in UK/ITA. Do you really think in the murkiness of all this that they are free of the issues you're criticizing TAL customers for? Hell, even for clothes made in a country you approve of, where did all the raw materials come from? How do you know the cotton in a Turnbull and Asser shirt didn't come from the same polluted place as the cotton in a Van Heusen? We can't do much to change global sales/manufacturing operations, but one thing that works is probably to buy less and pay extra for items that came from shorter more transparent supply chains, which no one on SF is going to be doing, because this is our drug.

The J Hillburn (or any other MTM type operation for guys who don't care about clothes) vs. bespoke = Applebee's vs. Peter Lugar comparison is apt but perhaps not in the way intended. It's apt in that most days, Applebee's will hit the spot for a good price for most people, while Peter Lugar isn't particularly magical and will generally elicit nothing much beyond a "well it turned out pretty good I guess...even at that price...I guess I don't have buyer's remorse...time to post to IG!" For every SF dork asking about the difference between Henry Poole vs. Huntsman, or if Mr. Tan is better at bellied lapels than Mr. Chau in that baotao alley in HK, there are probably a billion white collar drones who care about the difference between Glen Urquhart vs Glen Plaid vs PoW or structured vs. draped, and just need to look trustworthy and boring going into a meeting with a lead or a client. This is for them. What's the use in pouncing all over that?

Thank you.