Australian Members

[Swift-panda]

You mean my good pair of Blunnies aren't nice dress shoes?

 

[5iver]

5iver, you have been given so much advice here and much of it is sound, but I would like to be the voice of dissent.
If you spend you budget with Messrs Johnson, Nahkle, Crockett and Jones you will undoubtedly be very well dressed - or, at least, you will have one really nice outfit. But I think you are puting all you eggs in one basket.
You are just starting out. You should take some time to get to know your work environment and your own personal preferences and the best compromise between these.
Let me illustrate this with shoes. You will read here that it is perfectly okay to wear brown or dark tan shoes with a grey or blue suit - and so it is. But I have worked in corporate and legal environments for twenty plus years and I can tell you the incidence of non-black shoes is very, very low. The wearing of non-black shoes by a graduate solicitor will be seen as a "statement". You would have to be okay with that. Personally I would wait to suss a place out a bit first. I wear brown a burgundy shoes quite a lot, and I am in a tiny minority, but I am quite established in my career, have reached the point where I don't get bothered by what others think and I can get away with it.
Can I suggest you ditch your black suits as they just don't look good for work ('though you will see plenty of them) - but keep the best fitting one for going out in the evening. Buy two pairs of decent black shoes - Loakes from DJs on special would be fine, or maybe even RMs. C&J from Herringbone if you have the money - if you look after them they will last, so spending a bit of money up front will not be a waste. You need two pairs so you don't wear the same ones twice in a row.
Then buy three good off the rack suits - one dark grey (for big meetings, court etc), one mid-grey, one navy. With your frame you shoud be able to buy OTR and then get a good alterations tailor to adjust as needed. Just make sure they fit in the shoulders. I'd stay away from your Prada, Gucci, Pucci, Fiorucci etc - too fashiony for work. Try Herringbone (including their outlet centre near Central) or MJ Bale or Rhodes and Beckett - maybe wait for a sale if you can. Buy cotton sirts at the same place - if they are too blousy, get them 'darted' by a tailor. Three white, three blue and a pink would be a good start.
Buy some nice ties - not too bright. If you stick to conservative, 'school uniform' colours at first (navy, burgundy, bottle green, grey) in solids, pin dots or subtle stripes, getting dressed in the morning will be easy. Dial in your pesonal tastes over time through your tie choice. Avoid pocket squares for the first 12 months or so (see my chapter on shoes above) and then go for it after that.
All this should be well doable within your budget.
If you do go the MTM route with someone like P Johnson for your suits and shirts - this is not wrong per se - I just think you should walk a bit before you run.

Firstly, thank you for the time and effort you put to respond to my needs. In reality, I have been exposed to the work environment that I will be working in when I graduate at the end of this year, and it is generally quite conservative, and as you rightly pointed out, black shoe is pretty much standard fare in my corporate environment. Having said that, I have a pair of dark burgundy wingtip shoes made by Clark's that I like to wear to mix it up, and I do think you can get away with them.. I like them a lot, should I re-purchase Clarks, and if so, where can I buy them in Sydney? I don't know much about shoes, especially business shoes, but I am coming to realise that my preferred style is one where the shoe is neither too pointy, nor too plain/round (if I am describing it properly). Finding a mix in between will be the most challenging of tasks. I would possibly also like ti own a really dark brown of shoes as well, but black is definitely the safest option, and as I will be buying 2 pairs of shoes, I may just end up getting 2 black shoes (though I cannot wear loafers as they bother the top of my foot).

After my initial experiments with fashion, I have come to the realisation that fit is the most important element in looking good, and as a result, feeling confident and competent at work. That is why I want to try MTM shirts, as I have a huge problem getting shirts to fit properly. For example, I purchased a slim Hugo Boss business shirt a while back.. it fit fine on the chest at the time, and as per standard, it was too baggy around the waist. So I had the salesperson pin it to look good in the waist and sent it to their tailor. I have worn it once and realised that a) the waist still needs to be taken in further b) the sleeves are too baggy and too long c) i can comfortably fit 4 fingers into my collar... It is a great shirt, in the size that i expected it for me to fit (39, slim fit) but the shirt simply doesn't fit right. I will have to have it re-tailored and hope for the best...

Emporio Armani are the only shirts I have tried and worn so far that I can buy OTR without any alterations, even on the waist... i would love similar cut shirts, so I don't invest all in one brand label, but am unsure what I should even bother trying on.

Thank you for the suit suggestions - I am now convinced more than ever that grey should be the staple colour for a suit, and a classy pair of black shoes will look just perfect with it. The suggested stores have been mentioned time and time again and I will definitely check them out.

 

[5iver]

None of the advice you have been given is wrong or bad advice. Now here’s my two bobs worth.
In general black suits aren’t something that denizens of clothing forums speak highly of. There are several reasons for this. One is straight prejudice but there are others. Black strictly speaking isn’t a colour. Black is a combination of other colours that make up black and there are many shades of types of black. Black tends to not be flattering to skin tone and tends to drain the colour from the face. This effect also tends to be exaggerated by the fluorescent lights in most work places resulting in a yellowy pale non flattering look to the skin – face.
Black is widely used by women, and everyone in Melbourne, however it is best seen, for women anyway as a background “neutral” palate for other usually brighter colours – say a bright red top and shoes or similar. Black for males is best paradoxically as either “high” formal wear or casual wear. As casual wear it works best for men when the separate elements, jacket, pants etc are of different texture or shades of material or combined say with a nubby jacket, wide wale cord pants or suede shoes / boots. In general the smooth shiney look is the enemy of looking good in casual black. The Dinner Suit is a different matter.
Much of the black around is not the best black. The worst in my opinion is that black which has a green caste or to put it another way, the underlying dominant colour appears as a greenish tinge. This black rarely looks good in any light.
Another reason people here dislike black is that it is the default of those who do not know how to dress. Yet another reason is that many of the black suits around are made from inferior materials and are often shiney in a not good looking way and tend to look cheap. Because it is the first choice of those who are not all that competent in their own styling it also tends to be badly fitted thus compounding some of the inherent problems with black as a business suit.
Added to this it is often badly paired with too dark shirts, black, or worse, a green shade and either black tie or a starkly contrasting yellow or pale pastel tie.
The above is why it is generally not recommended to go for a black business suit.
Having said that, however, you will find a lot of men wearing black suits at work and some wearing them not too badly, with the odd one wearing them well. Historically black suits were common in UK, and here, but from what I can see were usually of heavier non shiney material. Black jacket, black vest and Grey trousers was a common work "uniform" in UK. You can see this done well by Captain Peacock, in old episodes of "Are You Being Served" currently on one of the TV channels. The show is a good window into generally pretty good mens dressing if you excuse the odd 70s style excess.
There is no need to toss out black suits for business wear. Just make sure they aren’t too shiney and that they fit well . Wear them only with white shirts and say a subdued deep burgundy tie and black shoes.
You say you have a black Thai-bespoke cashmere suit, another OTR black suit and a OTR blue. Without wishing to be rude I’ve never seen a Thai made suit that was as a well-made or fitted as an average OTR suit. It’s possible they exist but unlikely you managed to get one of the very few tailors there who do a good job.
If the blue suit (and the others) are ok my advice would be to make sure they fit well by going to a tailor and getting them adjusted to fit. That means perhaps taking in the waist a bit, don’t overdo it, adjusting pants for waist, thighs and bottom leg opening and importantly length. Mostly people wear trousers too long and bunched up at the shoe. Don’t be too influenced by the Forum here. Initially at least make sure you have a small break in your pants. This is done by getting your pants sitting as high as is sensibly possible ( i.e. not sitting on your hips) and getting the cuff to end halfway up you r shoe at the back. Most shops, and even tailors, will fit with trousers touching the top of the heel of the shoe or as a rule of thumb hitting the floor while you are in socks. This is too long.
On the other hand the just touching the shoe look favoured by the forum runs a danger in the inexperienced as looking like a dork whose pants are high water and too short. This is especially true if you are tall and skinny.
With the caveat that the existing suits are ok, I’d suggest using them to experiment with alterations and getting the fit right with a tailor. This should cost around $100 or less per suit, assuming the sleeves and jacket length are ok. This will give you a bit of experience of what works and doesn’t for you.
Getting a MTM or P J Johnston suit is not a bad idea but unless you are relatively cashed up and have a reasonable wardrobe already you will end up spending around $1,500 - $2,000 and still only have one suit.
From what I’ve seen I think you can confidently walk into a PJ store and rely on them to outfit you well even if you have no particular knowledge. So I wouldn’t be concerned on that score.
For work you'll need around 3 suits and at least one sport coat perhaps two and some wool odd pants – say two pairs of grey one dark and one light coloured grey. It may be that your work is suits only. But its still likely to be useful to have a Navy Blue jacket – sometimes called a reefer or blazer.
If you reckon your existing suits aren’t up to scratch I’d suggest looking at getting 3 OTR suits that you like initially then after a while of saving and seeing what you like, go to PJJ or someone.
A decent OTR suit can be had on sale for around $600 + and with a bit of alteration to fit will look just fine. Especially if you don’t wear the same suit everyday and don’t keep it on when you get home and lounge around. Just make sure you don’t get one of the “fashion” suits with “quirky” details like super slim lapels influenced by Mad Men. (Incidentally if you look at the actual Madmen suits the lapels aren’t all that narrow.). Don’t worry about canvassed, fused etc.
Stick with charcoal grey, navy and lighter grey initially for the suits. People here seem to favour plain suits, I’ve aways had stripes of some sort, chalk, pinstripe, self stripe on most of mine and I wasn’t aware until I came here that plain was preferred. Nothing wrong with either.
Depending on your age and preferences you are likely to have been wearing pants that sit too low on the hips and hang too low in the crutch. If so this will be the hardest personal thing to adjust before you can truly look smartly dressed. Its hard one.
Shirts- my advice is 5 plain white shirts and five plain LIGHT blue shirts with a slightly spread collar not a very wide cut. Do NOT buy the current fashion for narrow collars. Later on you can get into different colours and or stripes etc. A word of warning about pink – pink shirts are a bit like black suits and grey/ silver Toyotas and Holdens – everyone’s got one. Pink against the face doesn’t flatter all skin tones so hold off a bit until you think you know what you are doing. Don’t get all your shirts double / French cuff – have a few just button barrel cuff.
If you are very tall and lanky you might find that you have to get MTM shirts. Most of the online shirt places have been reviewed somewhere on SF at some time and most offer good value.
Ties – don’t go for shiney or pastel first up. Get 3 or 4 in deep rich colours, burgundy, blue and variations. Plain or patterned doesn’t matter .
Shoes – again don’t spend too much initially unless you are sure of your sizes and preferences. Get two pair of black shoes, not too pointy or too chiselled toed. Otherwise unless it’s a full country brogue it doesn’t matter a lot if its open laced, close laced or cap toed. A semi brogue is versatile. Loakes 1880 at DJs are a good price / quality/ style point. Even Florsheim has a few decent enough shoes in one of their ranges. Not SF approved but they’ll look ok. I was surprised when I walked into an Aquila shop in Adelaide to see that there was a range of shoes that I thought were ok and acceptable. Again not SF approved but remember your tastes will change in time..
Brown or deep burgundy may or may not be acceptable in your work place, but I think if you look around many people will be wearing a variety of crappy shoes. Black calls less attention your shoes and blends in but a pair of very dark burgundy, not red or too bright, will hardly result in a discipline interview. Very very dark brown acceptable for business is just too hard to get in Australia.
Very dark blue or grey socks are more versatile than black. Get a few pairs of over the calf or as long as possible - especially if you are tall. You don’t want to show any leg flesh while sitting. (although some here think that wearing no socks is acceptable even when not at the beach)
As far as Sydney goes - I’d imagine most of the time you’ll be wearing your suit inside in air con and wont need to take your jacket off much. I’d just get reasonably light weight materials and not worry too much about the more advanced dressing of linen or buggy lined suits. If you are interested in clothes that will come later if you aren’t interested well then it doesn’t matter.
I wouldn’t advise spending very much initially. Just get enough of sufficient FAQ quality to get by. As others have said after about 6 months you will have sussed out the office. It might be that a few sport coats and odd pants are a better investment than extra suits. You will also get a better idea of what you like, what suits you and what fits into your work. Then all that money you saved by getting OTR suits and shirts on sale you can blow on custom shirts and suits knowing exactly what you need.
Good luck.

Thank you for your advice. I am a typical Gen-Y cliche who wears his pants at his hips, and after looking through so many images of men's fashion, I agree that a pair of trousers worn exactly how you described it to me is what I want to try next. However, when you mean break, does that mean where the pants are sitting on my waist? And although I am tall and skinny, I work out a lot so my upper body is semi-acceptable looking, but my legs are the epitomy of lankiness. How tight should I ask for the pants to be at my ankles? When you mean the cuff ending halfway up my shoe, won't it still be touching my shoe at the front if I request that length from the tailor? But thank you for pointing out the classiest style of wearing pants. But my nearest tailor is very old and I presume old-school and doesn't look like the type of tailor that will suggest looks for me or be very creative, so I would need to guide him to tailor the pants exactly how I want. Though I am new to fashion, this is one of the key aspects that I want to incorporate in my style in the long-run as it is so stylish, but need tips to make it accentuate my height without making it evident how skinny my legs are (i have spent very little bit of my gym time on my bottom half, as opposed to my top half)

Another weird question... I would imagine wearing your pants so high could cause wedgies.. I know I often get them when wearing suits and going to the bathroom. What kind of underwear is best for wearing with suits that will be fitted? Tidey-whities? Fitted breefs?

In addition, I always wear an undershirt, regardless if I am wearing casual or business clothes. To me, it is an issue of hygiene that trumps style every time. Where can I buy high quality singlets/vests/undershirts in Sydney conservative business dress? Bearing in mind I mean high-quality in the sense that from my current collection of undershirts that I have had several years, the Tommy Hilfigers were the first to go (to go in the sense of yellow pit stains that cannot be removed), followed by the Ralph Lauren (after a long time to be fair to their durability) and the Emporio Armani undershirts lasted the longest, but they shrunk after so many washes to the point they are unwearable. I went to Emporio store and the only undershirts they had, had a big black logo on the back that would be see-through wearing a white business shirt... So any suggestions are most welcome on this front as well!

As for the Thai bespoke cashmere, I did it just to try it a while back, and I was happy with the results, in the sense that it is the best fitted blazer/suit jacket I own or have ever owned. The cut was good, but of course there would be problems with such a type of suit, they are just relatively minor... the first thing to go was the material in the inside of pockets, as I would keep my wallet, phone etc. in inside pockets, but they soon fell apart. One of the buttons became loose after a while, and got that fixed. The most annoying problem with the suit is that the suit collar at the back of my neck has increased, and will simply not go down to where it was when I first purchased it. I have no idea how or why that happened...

Thank you for the tie suggestions. Ideally, I would look for ties that would incorporate 3 colours when I am wearing a suit. 2 of the colours would be the colour of the suit and the colour of the shirt, and a 3rd would be a different colour all together (though I am not sure if there are any fixed or unspoken rules on how limited or free I am in choosing that 3rd "new" colour).

 

[5iver]

Selvaggio, I responded to your post first, but received a message saying that as I am new to the forum, my reply had to get moderated, even though my subsequent reply was posted immediately... I am confused, but hope my first response also gets uploaded!

 

[jobro]



Ideally, I would look for ties that would incorporate 3 colours when I am wearing a suit. 2 of the colours would be the colour of the suit and the colour of the shirt, and a 3rd would be a different colour all together (though I am not sure if there are any fixed or unspoken rules on how limited or free I am in choosing that 3rd "new" colour).

Ditch that rule. If I had to choose one tie it would be solid navy. I would recommend something along the lines of the following two ties to start with. Images from http://www.drakes-london.com There are plenty of useful threads on this forum with great examples of how to pair ties. There are really no rules but eventually, if you pay enough attention, you will be able to figure out what works and what doesn't.

 

[blahman]

Break is the amount of trousers crumpling up on the top of your shoes.

Looking through my ties, the ones I get most use out of are:
- Navy and white wool/silk repp tie
- Textured solid navy tie
- Solid maroon wool knit tie
- Chocolate herringbone with grey hairline tie
- Purple and white bicolour knit tie
- Blue with navy dot knit tie
- Solid black knit tie

Ties I have but hardly ever wear now:
- Grey ties of all sorts
- Silver ties
- Black self repp
- That nasty nasty nasty orange Kenji polyester tie.

All with my blue and white shirts and the occasional lavender shirt every now and then.
I think I need more knit ties. And perhaps a forest green tie even.

 

[Journeyman]

For any Brisbane gents out there, I believe that the Brisbane Herringbone store is re-opening tomorrow after an extensive refurbishment. They've added a mezzanine level which they plan to use for Herringbone's relatively new MTO program (which has not previously been offered in Brisbane).

I'm not terribly excited by the MTO program, though, as it is not offered on a Herringbone block, but is instead offered using a Scabal (I think) cut, which seems a bit odd to me.

Nonetheless, I'll be interested to see what the refurbished store looks like.

 

[tone76]



For any Brisbane gents out there, I believe that the Brisbane Herringbone store is re-opening tomorrow after an extensive refurbishment. They've added a mezzanine level which they plan to use for Herringbone's relatively new MTO program (which has not previously been offered in Brisbane).
I'm not terribly excited by the MTO program, though, as it is not offered on a Herringbone block, but is instead offered using a Scabal (I think) cut, which seems a bit odd to me.
Nonetheless, I'll be interested to see what the refurbished store looks like.

Speaking of Herringbone store openings, there are rumours doing the rounds that Adelaide's first Herringbone will open at Burnside Village once the new renovations are complete. There are also rumours that Zara's largest Australian store yet will open at Burnside as well.

 

[fxh]

However, when you mean break, does that mean where the pants are sitting on my waist?

No. The break is where the leg line of the pants, at the front, “breaks” and forms what I call the kick. It breaks the line of the crease.
That is, if the pants did not reach the shoe – there would be a straight line and no kick or break.
If they touch the shoe there will be a slight kick or break at the front.
If they are longer you get a bigger break or if too long, multiple breaks.

There should never be a break at the back.

Like a lot of things it’s a matter of preference or taste but there is some general consensus that a small or no break looks best. Except on some very narrow jeans where a bit of a stack on the shoe is preferred by many. When starting out its my experience that a small break is better to aim for than no break. One reason to have a break is so that the pants are long enough to still touch the shoe when walking. Suits are not just for looking good in posed pictures standing still. (or in the case of SF taking pics on phones in toilets) They are working garments.

How tight should I ask for the pants to be at my ankles?

Not too tight certainly on a suit.
It does vary but generally less than 8” (16”) bottom opening on a suit will look too fashion hipster and above 9 1/2” will look wide.

But its also a matter of taste. The leg also has to be in proportion. The knee would generally be an inch more than the bottom. Again it varies depending on the look you are after.

But my nearest tailor is very old and I presume old-school and doesn't look like the type of tailor that will suggest looks for me or be very creative, so I would need to guide him to tailor the pants exactly how I want.

If you are new to this there is no way you want to be “guiding” an old tailor.
In fact it could be argued that even if you are experienced you shouldn’t be guiding your tailor. It’s a delicate thing even when you know each other well.

And although I am tall and skinny, I work out a lot so my upper body is semi-acceptable looking, but my legs are the epitomy of lankiness.

I hate to tell you this but body shape and bulk etc are generally more influenced by bone structure and genes rather than working out.

Clothes and tailored clothes in particular are designed to present the image of a perfect silhouette of a man to the world. They are purpose built if you like to hide (perceived) imperfections and provide a idealised look of (mainly) military origins. Clothes look best when they hang a bit not fit skin tight. Tall and skinny is the best hanger for clothes - look at the supermodels.

But thank you for pointing out the classiest style of wearing pants

In general your pants seam should be about where your testicles hang when you are standing and your waistband should be above your hips and below your belly button. In days of old many men wore pants with the seam almost hard up on the crutch and let the package hang down one side, often with a visible bulge. Hence the expression, “Which side does sir dress on?”

Jeans, and most casual pants these days, are cut very low and sit on or below the hips. This is not the best way to wear dress pants. The terms high rise and low rise usually refer to the distance from the centre seam in the crutch to the top of the waist band. Usually it refers to the front measurement but there is also a rear rise.

I like a `11” or even 12” rise these days but many pants are at 10” or less. (there are some who will have a measuring tape when looking for OTR pants – I’m looking at you Cal Dreamer.) Reasonably well fitting pants won’t give you a wedgie.

In addition, I always wear an undershirt, regardless if I am wearing casual or business clothes.

I’m the wrong person to ask here. I’ve never understood wearing singlets under dress shirts but I do understand there are some who do. A good quality dress shirt will usually be thick enough not to be see through. Again I never wear anything see through in a shirt. It why I haven’t yet got a white linen shirt.

As far as the ties go – just keep it simple and not shiney or pastel.

This will all seem confusing and it is.

The danger is not knowing anything or equally overthinking it all. Don’t worry too much for a start. Try on a lot of suits – usually don’t worry about trying on pants, just the jackets, and get an idea of what suits you. Just trying on jackets is quicker and you don’t even need a dressing room or assistant. Know what to look for – enough length to cover your bum and not too long. Make sure it fits at shoulder and neck. Not more than ½” over or under the end of your shoulder and the collar should hug your neck and sit well. Almost anything else can be adjusted.

 

[Geoffrey Firmin]



If you guys think it's hard trying to find nice shoes in Melbourne try doing it in Hobart.

Obviously you have never lived in Canberra.

 

[ryanohare]



Whilst shopping around town today I noticed two things.
2) Oxford have new season polos shirts in bright pink, powder blue and pale lavender/lilac. All with subtle white trim on the collar and no visible chest logo in a traditional polo weave. I might grab a few of these at Boxing day sales.

Mate, word of warning; try them on and see how they sit on you before any purchase. I find them to be hideously disproportionate on me and really not well constructed.

Once bitten and all that.

 

[blahman]

Oxford items are 99% rubbish. Especially since they removed all the luxury line shirts now. I wouldn't buy any Oxford items at any discount under 75% off.

 

[ryanohare]



Oxford items are 99% rubbish. Especially since they removed all the luxury line shirts now. I wouldn't buy any Oxford items at any discount under 75% off.

Completely agree.

I went in recently and they didn't actually have a sale on. Complete shock.

 

[thebrownman]

I am enjoying this hating on Oxford immensely.

Immensely.

 

[ColdEyedPugilist]



For any Brisbane gents out there, I believe that the Brisbane Herringbone store is re-opening tomorrow after an extensive refurbishment. They've added a mezzanine level which they plan to use for Herringbone's relatively new MTO program (which has not previously been offered in Brisbane).
I'm not terribly excited by the MTO program, though, as it is not offered on a Herringbone block, but is instead offered using a Scabal (I think) cut, which seems a bit odd to me.
Nonetheless, I'll be interested to see what the refurbished store looks like.

H'bone going with the Scabal and not the Osaka is what really pisses me off, J.

I love the Osaka, which if you remember, was inspired by the Ring Jacket 184 block, and cannot understand why they are taking this route, except, cynically speaking, for the purposes of operational optimisation (leverage off Van Laack's existing infrastructure).

Very disappointing, to say the least.