Australian Members

[Selvaggio]

5iver, you have been given so much advice here and much of it is sound, but I would like to be the voice of dissent.

If you spend you budget with Messrs Johnson, Nahkle, Crockett and Jones you will undoubtedly be very well dressed - or, at least, you will have one really nice outfit. But I think you are puting all you eggs in one basket.

You are just starting out. You should take some time to get to know your work environment and your own personal preferences and the best compromise between these.

Let me illustrate this with shoes. You will read here that it is perfectly okay to wear brown or dark tan shoes with a grey or blue suit - and so it is. But I have worked in corporate and legal environments for twenty plus years and I can tell you the incidence of non-black shoes is very, very low. The wearing of non-black shoes by a graduate solicitor will be seen as a "statement". You would have to be okay with that. Personally I would wait to suss a place out a bit first. I wear brown a burgundy shoes quite a lot, and I am in a tiny minority, but I am quite established in my career, have reached the point where I don't get bothered by what others think and I can get away with it.

Can I suggest you ditch your black suits as they just don't look good for work ('though you will see plenty of them) - but keep the best fitting one for going out in the evening. Buy two pairs of decent black shoes - Loakes from DJs on special would be fine, or maybe even RMs. C&J from Herringbone if you have the money - if you look after them they will last, so spending a bit of money up front will not be a waste. You need two pairs so you don't wear the same ones twice in a row.

Then buy three good off the rack suits - one dark grey (for big meetings, court etc), one mid-grey, one navy. With your frame you shoud be able to buy OTR and then get a good alterations tailor to adjust as needed. Just make sure they fit in the shoulders. I'd stay away from your Prada, Gucci, Pucci, Fiorucci etc - too fashiony for work. Try Herringbone (including their outlet centre near Central) or MJ Bale or Rhodes and Beckett - maybe wait for a sale if you can. Buy cotton sirts at the same place - if they are too blousy, get them 'darted' by a tailor. Three white, three blue and a pink would be a good start.

Buy some nice ties - not too bright. If you stick to conservative, 'school uniform' colours at first (navy, burgundy, bottle green, grey) in solids, pin dots or subtle stripes, getting dressed in the morning will be easy. Dial in your pesonal tastes over time through your tie choice. Avoid pocket squares for the first 12 months or so (see my chapter on shoes above) and then go for it after that.

All this should be well doable within your budget.

If you do go the MTM route with someone like P Johnson for your suits and shirts - this is not wrong per se - I just think you should walk a bit before you run.

 

[tone76]



I have just started working again after taking a solid 18 month break. I have been looking at getting some shirts made by http://www.moderntailor.com/ have you seen the selection? I am not a lazy dresser but I am a lazy shopper. How are you supposed to choose from 2000 different fabric options!

I usually choose by (a) material and (b) if a fabric is on sale. That said, if you've never done the MT thing before, I strongly suggest getting the blue oxford trial shirt. It's cheap, will help you dial in your exact measurements for your second and subsequent shirts, and assuming your initial measurements aren't really badly off, you'll have a decent shirt that is possibly the most flexible shirt you could ever own.

 

[Journeyman]



If you do go the MTM route with someone like P Johnson for your suits and shirts - this is not wrong per se - I just think you should walk a bit before you run.

All good advice by Selvaggio, and I tend to agree.

Get an idea as to what you actually like/want in a suit, before you have one made just for you.
Otherwise, it's really a wasted opportunity. Spend some time wearing off-the-rack (OTR) suits first, get to know how you like your suits to fit, whether you like two-button or three-button jackets, whether you like single vents or double vents and all those sorts of details. Then, once you have a good idea as to what you like, take the time to have one made for you with those details. Do it before that, though, and chances are that you may well end up with something that you won't like in a few years' time.

Also, of course, bear in mind that getting something made for you takes time - often 6-8 weeks. If you can find something that fits you off-the-rack with minimal alterations, you could be wearing it as soon as the next business day. That can be a big advantage, particularly if time is an issue.

 

[blahman]



I have just started working again after taking a solid 18 month break. I have been looking at getting some shirts made by http://www.moderntailor.com/ have you seen the selection? I am not a lazy dresser but I am a lazy shopper. How are you supposed to choose from 2000 different fabric options!

1. Pick that blue oxford cloth one that is on sale for $20 for new customers to use as test shirt for your measurements (from MT thread it appears to be a decent fabric, so if it is wearable when it comes you have a good shirt to wear already). 2. Adjust measurements. 3. Narrow your choices of fabrics down to under 10 instantly by only choosing from 2 ply, on-sale fabrics. 4. Tweak adjustments. 5. If perfect, if satisfied with these 80 thread count, 2ply, sales fabrics you can keep ordering these kind of cloths. If feeling like paying a bit more, go straight for the Thomas Mason ones.

 

[ColdEyedPugilist]



5iver : Your dad sounds like he knows what he's on about. Stick with him.
As a humorous aside, I took a mate of mine shirt shopping at Azzaro last week. He's started work at a hedge fund. He bought five blue shirts. Solid light blue, solid medium blue, thin light-blue stripes, thick light-blue stripes and a light blue with a cross weave/texture.
I wept.

Hey blue is a great colour Especially if you are a lazy dresser like me. I have 10 white shirts, and 5 blues in my collection of 20 odd shirts. I crawl out of bed in the morning still half asleep and slap on whatever shirt and random tie from my tie box and still look half respectable.

Ha ha.

Sounds like me: Only blue and white shirts, plain and patterned.

Messr Nahkle has been trying hard to coax me away from blue, but I just can't seem to get around the versatility of the colour; especially in the sublime weaves from Sic Tess, Alumo and Thomas Mason.

 

[fxh]



OK guys so any advice would be appreciated.. I am starting at a big corporate firm in Sydney at the end of the year and have to build my wardrobe. So far i have 1 Thai-bespoke cashmere suit black, 1 OTR black, and 1 OTR navy blue.. 5 fitted shirts... 3 tailored, and 2 are emporio armani (i haven't found another brand whose shirts fit me OTR as well as Emporio Armani... I am lanky - tall + skinny and any suggestions are most welcome).

Though I am skinny, I work out quite a bit, so my posture isn't too bad, but i would be borderline underweight..I have a budget of 5,000$AUD and need the following (in priority):

-2 pairs of shoes, as I only have 1 pair of average black shoes... what colours and stores should I go for?

None of the advice you have been given is wrong or bad advice. Now here’s my two bobs worth. In general black suits aren’t something that denizens of clothing forums speak highly of. There are several reasons for this. One is straight prejudice but there are others. Black strictly speaking isn’t a colour. Black is a combination of other colours that make up black and there are many shades of types of black. Black tends to not be flattering to skin tone and tends to drain the colour from the face. This effect also tends to be exaggerated by the fluorescent lights in most work places resulting in a yellowy pale non flattering look to the skin – face. Black is widely used by women, and everyone in Melbourne, however it is best seen, for women anyway as a background “neutral” palate for other usually brighter colours – say a bright red top and shoes or similar. Black for males is best paradoxically as either “high” formal wear or casual wear. As casual wear it works best for men when the separate elements, jacket, pants etc are of different texture or shades of material or combined say with a nubby jacket, wide wale cord pants or suede shoes / boots. In general the smooth shiney look is the enemy of looking good in casual black. The Dinner Suit is a different matter. Much of the black around is not the best black. The worst in my opinion is that black which has a green caste or to put it another way, the underlying dominant colour appears as a greenish tinge. This black rarely looks good in any light. Another reason people here dislike black is that it is the default of those who do not know how to dress. Yet another reason is that many of the black suits around are made from inferior materials and are often shiney in a not good looking way and tend to look cheap. Because it is the first choice of those who are not all that competent in their own styling it also tends to be badly fitted thus compounding some of the inherent problems with black as a business suit. Added to this it is often badly paired with too dark shirts, black, or worse, a green shade and either black tie or a starkly contrasting yellow or pale pastel tie. The above is why it is generally not recommended to go for a black business suit. Having said that, however, you will find a lot of men wearing black suits at work and some wearing them not too badly, with the odd one wearing them well. Historically black suits were common in UK, and here, but from what I can see were usually of heavier non shiney material. Black jacket, black vest and Grey trousers was a common work "uniform" in UK. You can see this done well by Captain Peacock, in old episodes of "Are You Being Served" currently on one of the TV channels. The show is a good window into generally pretty good mens dressing if you excuse the odd 70s style excess. There is no need to toss out black suits for business wear. Just make sure they aren’t too shiney and that they fit well . Wear them only with white shirts and say a subdued deep burgundy tie and black shoes. You say you have a black Thai-bespoke cashmere suit, another OTR black suit and a OTR blue. Without wishing to be rude I’ve never seen a Thai made suit that was as a well-made or fitted as an average OTR suit. It’s possible they exist but unlikely you managed to get one of the very few tailors there who do a good job. If the blue suit (and the others) are ok my advice would be to make sure they fit well by going to a tailor and getting them adjusted to fit. That means perhaps taking in the waist a bit, don’t overdo it, adjusting pants for waist, thighs and bottom leg opening and importantly length. Mostly people wear trousers too long and bunched up at the shoe. Don’t be too influenced by the Forum here. Initially at least make sure you have a small break in your pants. This is done by getting your pants sitting as high as is sensibly possible ( i.e. not sitting on your hips) and getting the cuff to end halfway up you r shoe at the back. Most shops, and even tailors, will fit with trousers touching the top of the heel of the shoe or as a rule of thumb hitting the floor while you are in socks. This is too long. On the other hand the just touching the shoe look favoured by the forum runs a danger in the inexperienced as looking like a dork whose pants are high water and too short. This is especially true if you are tall and skinny. With the caveat that the existing suits are ok, I’d suggest using them to experiment with alterations and getting the fit right with a tailor. This should cost around $100 or less per suit, assuming the sleeves and jacket length are ok. This will give you a bit of experience of what works and doesn’t for you. Getting a MTM or P J Johnston suit is not a bad idea but unless you are relatively cashed up and have a reasonable wardrobe already you will end up spending around $1,500 - $2,000 and still only have one suit. From what I’ve seen I think you can confidently walk into a PJ store and rely on them to outfit you well even if you have no particular knowledge. So I wouldn’t be concerned on that score. For work you'll need around 3 suits and at least one sport coat perhaps two and some wool odd pants – say two pairs of grey one dark and one light coloured grey. It may be that your work is suits only. But its still likely to be useful to have a Navy Blue jacket – sometimes called a reefer or blazer. If you reckon your existing suits aren’t up to scratch I’d suggest looking at getting 3 OTR suits that you like initially then after a while of saving and seeing what you like, go to PJJ or someone. A decent OTR suit can be had on sale for around $600 + and with a bit of alteration to fit will look just fine. Especially if you don’t wear the same suit everyday and don’t keep it on when you get home and lounge around. Just make sure you don’t get one of the “fashion” suits with “quirky” details like super slim lapels influenced by Mad Men. (Incidentally if you look at the actual Madmen suits the lapels aren’t all that narrow.). Don’t worry about canvassed, fused etc. Stick with charcoal grey, navy and lighter grey initially for the suits. People here seem to favour plain suits, I’ve aways had stripes of some sort, chalk, pinstripe, self stripe on most of mine and I wasn’t aware until I came here that plain was preferred. Nothing wrong with either. Depending on your age and preferences you are likely to have been wearing pants that sit too low on the hips and hang too low in the crutch. If so this will be the hardest personal thing to adjust before you can truly look smartly dressed. Its hard one. Shirts- my advice is 5 plain white shirts and five plain LIGHT blue shirts with a slightly spread collar not a very wide cut. Do NOT buy the current fashion for narrow collars. Later on you can get into different colours and or stripes etc. A word of warning about pink – pink shirts are a bit like black suits and grey/ silver Toyotas and Holdens – everyone’s got one. Pink against the face doesn’t flatter all skin tones so hold off a bit until you think you know what you are doing. Don’t get all your shirts double / French cuff – have a few just button barrel cuff. If you are very tall and lanky you might find that you have to get MTM shirts. Most of the online shirt places have been reviewed somewhere on SF at some time and most offer good value. Ties – don’t go for shiney or pastel first up. Get 3 or 4 in deep rich colours, burgundy, blue and variations. Plain or patterned doesn’t matter . Shoes – again don’t spend too much initially unless you are sure of your sizes and preferences. Get two pair of black shoes, not too pointy or too chiselled toed. Otherwise unless it’s a full country brogue it doesn’t matter a lot if its open laced, close laced or cap toed. A semi brogue is versatile. Loakes 1880 at DJs are a good price / quality/ style point. Even Florsheim has a few decent enough shoes in one of their ranges. Not SF approved but they’ll look ok. I was surprised when I walked into an Aquila shop in Adelaide to see that there was a range of shoes that I thought were ok and acceptable. Again not SF approved but remember your tastes will change in time.. Brown or deep burgundy may or may not be acceptable in your work place, but I think if you look around many people will be wearing a variety of crappy shoes. Black calls less attention your shoes and blends in but a pair of very dark burgundy, not red or too bright, will hardly result in a discipline interview. Very very dark brown acceptable for business is just too hard to get in Australia. Very dark blue or grey socks are more versatile than black. Get a few pairs of over the calf or as long as possible - especially if you are tall. You don’t want to show any leg flesh while sitting. (although some here think that wearing no socks is acceptable even when not at the beach) As far as Sydney goes - I’d imagine most of the time you’ll be wearing your suit inside in air con and wont need to take your jacket off much. I’d just get reasonably light weight materials and not worry too much about the more advanced dressing of linen or buggy lined suits. If you are interested in clothes that will come later if you aren’t interested well then it doesn’t matter. I wouldn’t advise spending very much initially. Just get enough of sufficient FAQ quality to get by. As others have said after about 6 months you will have sussed out the office. It might be that a few sport coats and odd pants are a better investment than extra suits. You will also get a better idea of what you like, what suits you and what fits into your work. Then all that money you saved by getting OTR suits and shirts on sale you can blow on custom shirts and suits knowing exactly what you need. Good luck.

 

[__PG__]

Whilst shopping around town today I noticed two things.
1) Florshiem make cheap casual shoes (i.e. trainers/sneakers) that are fully leather lined. New shoes on their website are about $140. Rubber sole with suede/nubuck uppers. I might visit one of their outlets to see what is around.
2) Oxford have new season polos shirts in bright pink, powder blue and pale lavender/lilac. All with subtle white trim on the collar and no visible chest logo in a traditional polo weave. I might grab a few of these at Boxing day sales.

 

[Swift-panda]

If you guys think it's hard trying to find nice shoes in Melbourne try doing it in Hobart.

 

[Dicko]



Get shoe trees from endless.com, they offer free shipping for orders > $100.

Just picked up the fifth avenue for $250 shipped

My shoe trees arrived today, pretty rapid shipping! Also, my sperry top-siders in sahara tan arrived and they fit perfectly thanks again HMS

 

[bhall41]



If you guys think it's hard trying to find nice shoes in Melbourne try doing it in Hobart.

Not necessarily for shoes (better off purchasing online IMO) but Routleys used to be OK for menswear I thought?

 

[MickyD]

Typical awesome quality iPhone photo, but new C&J Lowndes in Espresso Suede (via Christian @ Herringbone)

just in the process of spraying them with waterproofer.

Also bought a Thomas Pink cashmere jumper @ 50% off yesterday

 

[fxh]



Not necessarily for shoes (better off purchasing online IMO) but Routleys used to be OK for menswear I thought?

I'm going down Thursday night - back Saturday. Going to MoNA and Salamanca Market, Drunken Admiral for a meal, mooching around , IXL Bar - will drop into Routleys too.

 

[bhall41]



I'm going down Thursday night - back Saturday. Going to MoNA and Salamanca Market, Drunken Admiral for a meal, mooching around , IXL Bar - will drop into Routleys too.

Went to MONA a few weekends ago - fantastic experience: caught the ferry there. Went for a wine tasting at Moorilla Estate afterwards. Salamanca market is great too. My parents live in Tasi so I try to get there occasionally.

 

[Swift-panda]

It is an awesome place to live, I do enjoy it. MoNA is fantastic I must have been there three times already. The brilliant thing is the art gets changed around reasonably often because his collection is so large, so you can keep going back.

Moorilla is pretty nice, I'll share with you a bit of a cool story if i may. There has been a bit of a ritual with med student that they would have a party each year at Moorilla (I think it was a graduation party) and one year it got a bit out of control and someone wrote off a golf buggy. Jan Welch made a deal that he would reduce or drop not sure which one the recuperation cost if they would use the equipment at the hospital to scan his mummy as he wanted to tell if it was a fake or not.

Routleys isn't to bad but there shirts aren't generally to my taste and every time I walk in there to look at jackets I think "I could by a Burbury sports coat for the price of this Boston one." Gotta love internet prices.

Friday night along Salamanca has a pretty good vibe.

 

[blahman]



If you guys think it's hard trying to find nice shoes in Melbourne try doing it in Hobart.

Where Blundstones are worn at weddings, nice shoes would be overdressed down in Tassy.