Massdrop x Styleforum x Panta Madder Tie GMTO (official collaboration)

@brillopad

A poster n another thread brought up a correct point. These are not "ancient madder" ties and shouldn't be sold as such. I described them as madder like and think that is appropriate.



edmorel said:

@brillopad

A poster n another thread brought up a correct point. These are not "ancient madder" ties and shouldn't be sold as such. I described them as madder like and think that is appropriate.

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Ed thanks a lot for doing this. I ended up buying three after the navy was added.
I expect I will be happy with these.

Please consider doing more in the future.

Just bought the blue one ...



edmorel said:

@brillopad

A poster n another thread brought up a correct point. These are not "ancient madder" ties and shouldn't be sold as such. I described them as madder like and think that is appropriate.

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What's the difference between an "ancient madder" and simply "madder" patterned tie?

CBrown85 said:

What's the difference between an "ancient madder" and simply "madder" patterned tie?

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A couple hundred years or so

dieworkwear made a post about it but basically ancient madder dye was extracted from specific plants in a manner which has been considered environmentally damaging and no longer done. So a true, historical ancient madder silk is no longer made. Ancient madder ties are still made though, using synthetic methods (I'm paraphrasing here from dieworkwear). So if you are looking for a new ancient madder tie made with silk dyed the old way, they are no longer made. If you are looking for an ancient madder tie where that term is applied more loosely, then there are ties available.

Drake's claims the old way is still done, but only in England:

http://www.drakes.com/details/ties/ancient-madder

Perhaps there are national differences in how the term is used?

Just to be clear, I don't care about the definition for purposes of this thread. These fabrics are lovely and the ties are a real bargain. I don't care what we call them.

Others may feel differently, of course.

Cheers,

Ac



Academic2 said:

Drake's claims it's still done in England:

http://www.drakes.com/details/ties/ancient-madder

Perhaps there are national differences in how the term is used?

Just to be clear, I don't care about the definition for purposes of this thread.  These fabrics are lovely and the ties are a real bargain.  I don't care what we call them.

Others may feel differently, of course.

Cheers,

Ac

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Ancient madder is still produced in England. My point was that the "ancient" part is a bit of a misnomer, as the thing that originally made them ancient was the method of deriving the dye. The dyes used to be taken from a European plant, which had a root that was commonly used to dye regal clothes in ancient times. Now that we use sythetically derived dyes, the "ancient" part is just a holdover from what we used to call these silks

AFAIK, Drake's uses synthetically derived dyes for their "ancient" madders. They could be using multiple printers, but I spoke to one confirmed place last year. The owner of the place claimed they were the only Macclesfield producer of real ancient madder, and he confirmed they were using synthetically derived dyes. He said nobody wants the "real" ancient madders anyway because the dyes are too inconsistent. So every 12.5 yards or so, the red dye might vary ever-so-slightly -- enough for customers to complain when they're made into ties. Synthetic dyes allow them to get better consistency.

Anyway, my point really was just that the ancient part has to do with the dye extraction method, not the printing method. You can have ancient madders that are screen or ink jet printed. The term just refers to a chalky-feeling silk.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

Does madder refer both to the fabric itself and associated feel and the general patterns used (eg florettes or geometric shapes)? Any real quality difference in screen printing vs ink jet printing? Had no idea these patterns are printed simply using an ink jet printer.

Didnt realize there was a navy choice. Just kopped

teddieriley said:

Does madder refer both to the fabric itself and associated feel and the general patterns used (eg florettes or geometric shapes)? Any real quality difference in screen printing vs ink jet printing? Had no idea these patterns are printed simply using an ink jet printer.

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Madders can come in a variety of patterns, from small neats to big squares and medallions to wild non-repeating paisleys (all of which can be found in non-madder ties). In general parlance it refers to the luminosity of the silk; madder has a distinct, muted dustiness to it that originally came from the gum silks on which it was printed.

Apparently in the MassDrop discussion an admin said that the 9CM ties are outnumbering the 8CM ties sold at a 4 to 1 ratio.
I also strongly prefer 9cm ties as I think that 8cm ties are too narrow at the knot to have a decent looking cleft. They always end up looking awkward in my experience.

I wonder if this will inspire Panta to change their default width on their website?

8cm, A13.

Claghorn said:

8cm, A13.

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Contrarian.