Ongoing Bespoke Projects



dfoverdx said:

It was overall negative as well. The fit was ok, the suit needed some adjustments when i received it. Formosa was nice to make anything he can to adjust it but actually they didn't let enough fabric to make jacket slightly wider for example...

Click to expand...

That would drive me nuts. They should do a remake. For what it's worth, I've had some pretty poor experiences with some of the Neapolitan board darlings. They tout their handwork and show you all sorts of details that are time consuming and imply a great degree of care, but the minute something goes wrong and isn't quite right you get a shoulder shrug and a promise that the next one will be perfect. Not that some of the savile row firms are much better. Anyone going through bespoke for the first time - my advice would be to ask the tailor two questions: the first is how many fittings until I have my first suit and the second is what happens if something goes wrong. The answer to the first question is "I don't know; as many as it takes to get it right" and the the second is "we fix it to our satisfaction or you get your money back".

dieworkwear said:

Why would contracting part of the work out make something "less bespoke?"

Click to expand...

When i go to my tailor and do fitting, he doesn't need to mark anything with chalk on the cloth because i do my fitting then immediately he implements changes. During my 2 day visit to there actually he's working only on my suits. When something needs to be widened very very little, he widens very very little. On the other hand in other less bespoke systems, the tailor is marking changes on the cloth and it's done later on. Nobody has the visual of the problem anymore...



dfoverdx said:

When i go to my tailor and do fitting, he doesn't need to mark anything with chalk on the cloth because i do my fitting then immediately he implements changes. During my 2 day visit to there actually he's working only on my suits. When something needs to be widened very very little, he widens very very little. On the other hand in other less bespoke systems, the tailor is marking changes on the cloth and it's done later on. Nobody has the visual of the problem anymore...

Click to expand...

"Less bespoke systems" sounds really odd. Bespoke is just how garments were made before the advent of factory production. There were dozens, maybe even hundreds, of methods before things went to ready-to-wear.

You may enjoy your tailor's method better than others, but calling something "less" or "more" bespoke doesn't really make sense to me. Under your logic, the epicenter of bespoke tailoring would then be Hong Kong, where a single person makes a jacket from start to finish. And Savile Row would be "less bespoke" since the work is broken up between cutters, coatmakers, and tailors.

Note, I don't think Savile Row is "more" bespoke than tailoring in Hong Kong either. Just cause someone prefers one way of making clothes doesn't mean that another way is invalid. Bespoke is just bespoke.

I do think it's useful to have your cutter present, both for the jacket and pants. If someone is sending the work out, you may not have your trouser cutter at the fitting, which doesn't seem ideal. But calling it "less bespoke" makes no sense to me.

^ but outsourcing generally means you are pushing the work from high cost, highly skilled workers to lower cost less skilled workers, no?



agjiffy said:

^ but outsourcing generally means you are pushing the work from high cost, highly skilled workers to lower cost less skilled workers, no?

Click to expand...

I don't think so. It's just a way to manage a business. You could be pushing work out because you don't have the expertise in-house. Or (frankly) don't want to pay for employee benefits or whatever.

As you probably know, in English shoemaking (and leathergoods in general), the outworker system is really, really old. It's just how things are traditionally done.

Especially for things like buttonholes, which in Naples is all done by outworkers, does anyone really care if it's contracted out? I'm not sure what difference it would make for the end client, assuming the work is good.

The only quip I can think of is having the trouser cutter at your fitting, which might not happen if the work is pushed out. But I also assume that your regular cutter could probably relay whatever is needed for trousers since trousers aren't as complicated anyway.

Not necessarily. Some of the outsourced workers are highly skilled in their specific craft.

Outsourced is often perceived as a negative. "Sent to a specialist" is just a different way to say the same thing.

The reality is remakes are rarely done. There is usually enough grey area where the suit is fine even if the client was expecting a little better. Even in the case where details were missed (wrong color lining, etc), most clients just let it go. I know I have. In all my years of ordering bespoke clothes, I have had only one instance where the bespoke provider took back the garment because it did not fit and we agreed it could not be salvaged.



bry2000 said:

The reality is remakes are rarely done. There is usually enough grey area where the suit is fine even if the client was expecting a little better. Even in the case where details were missed (wrong color lining, etc), most clients just let it go. I know I have. In all my years of ordering bespoke clothes, I have had only one instance where the bespoke provider took back the garment because it did not fit and we agreed it could not be salvaged.

Click to expand...

Sure. Rarely done because they are rarely necessary. It's not the Apollo project. It's men's suiting. Most of the time it's right or within a range where it can easily be made right. But if a suit can't be modified because there isn't enough fabric then that strikes me as a clear case where a remake is necessary. I've had jackets completely broken down and reassembled. And I've rejected bespoke shoes completely and asked for my money back instead of a remake. I currently have huntsman working on a jacket that I ordered in December 2013. I've never had to have a jacket completely redone but I have no doubt that if a jacket needed to be remade then it would.



paborden said:

One tailor and one commission to start?

One tailor or one commission or both?

Click to expand...

@paborden If you're still with us and reading the exchanges I would suggest sticking with one tailor. Go with one who's house style you like the most and can see yourself wearing in a business setting and or casual nature. I got killed in the Paone thread for saying this but all you need is one tailor for now. Work on building a rapport and refining your pattern. You may find this endeavor an expensive ass pain to get right.

can we agree that not every fit "problem" is always the tailor's fault? I've attended A LOT of fittings in the last couple years and it is clear to me that some customers are unable to articulate their preferences clearly, even when they have two opportunities to do so (order and basted fitting). Not to mention that customers (especially those with little experience with bespoke) are sometimes plain wrong about their requests or assessment (I know I have been one of those guys) - it takes time and some wear to understand what is a good fit, and then again to articulate some of those preferences clearly.

My best advice is to (a) trust the tailor without micro-managing (the absolute worst results are always when a customer takes a tape to the jacket and starts a long list of requests) BUT (b) to open your eyes and mouth at the basted fitting stage. Is the jacket the length you like? It will be much harder to fix that later. Do you like the feeling around the chest and waist when it's pinned? If you have a preference for more room or something leaner, speak up. There's a spectrum of fits that are perfectly correct in absolute but may be very different from one person's preference to the other.

My other point is that tailors are not immune to screwing up. Everyone makes mistakes. Often, everything is great after two fittings. But sometimes, a commission needs more work and a few rounds of further alterations. An experienced tailor will go through those motions and correct the issues.

But when it's the customer who is being impossible about nits and things that are just not realistic - we're talking about cloth that moves and stretches and people whose waist expands after a big lunch yet somehow expects millimetric perfection with fittings that are several months apart...

In my experience in the last two years, 75% of bespoke commissions turn out very well after basted fittings, 20%+ require further work after forward fitting (more than just sleeve length or hems) and 3-4% will never be right because the customer has an unreasonable state of mind about the whole thing. So a very small minority overall. Most issues can be worked and resolved.

Final point is that one MUST take into account cultural differences in expressing themselves when dealing with people from other countries. Some Italian tailors will shrug and be "confrontational" about discussed fit issues (saving face) - but then will absolutely do the work to get you all the fixes you want, so that they can be proud of their work and the fact that you're satisfied with it.



a lot of American customers are very deadpan about their satisfaction with the tailor's work. It isn't anyone's fault - it's part of our cultural upbringing - but understanding these differences in expressing ideas and impressions, can only help in developing a better rapport between people. Be more expressive, tell your tailor how happy you are if he did a nice job for you.



gdl203 said:

can we agree that not every fit "problem" is always the tailor's fault?

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

I've attended A LOT of fittings in the last couple years and it is clear to me that some customers are unable to articulate their preferences clearly, even when they have two opportunities to do so (order and basted fitting). Not to mention that customers (especially those with little experience with bespoke) are sometimes plain wrong about their requests or assessment (I know I have been one of those guys) - it takes time and some wear to understand what is a good fit, and then again to articulate some of those preferences clearly.

My best advice is to (a) trust the tailor without micro-managing (the absolute worst results are always when a customer takes a tape to the jacket and starts a long list of requests) BUT (b) to open your eyes and mouth at the basted fitting stage. Is the jacket the length you like? It will be much harder to fix that later. Do you like the feeling around the chest and waist when it's pinned? If you have a preference for more room or something leaner, speak up. There's a spectrum of fits that are perfectly correct in absolute but may be very different from one person's preference to the other.

My other point is that tailors are not immune to screwing up. Everyone makes mistakes. Often, everything is great after two fittings. But sometimes, a commission needs more work and a few rounds of further alterations. An experienced tailor will go through those motions and correct the issues.

But when it's the customer who is being impossible about nits and things that are just not realistic - we're talking about cloth that moves and stretches and people whose waist expands after a big lunch yet somehow expects millimetric perfection with fittings that are several months apart...

In my experience in the last two years, 75% of bespoke commissions turn out very well after basted fittings, 20%+ require further work after forward fitting (more than just sleeve length or hems) and 3-4% will never be right because the customer has an unreasonable state of mind about the whole thing. So a very small minority overall. Most issues can be worked and resolved.

Final point is that one MUST take into account cultural differences in expressing themselves when dealing with people from other countries. Some Italian tailors will shrug and be "confrontational" about discussed fit issues (saving face) - but then will absolutely do the work to get you all the fixes you want, so that they can be proud of their work and the fact that you're satisfied with it.

a lot of American customers are very deadpan about their satisfaction with the tailor's work. It isn't anyone's fault - it's part of our cultural upbringing - but understanding these differences in expressing ideas and impressions, can only help in developing a better rapport between people. Be more expressive, tell your tailor how happy you are if he did a nice job for you

.

Click to expand...

Agree. I'm curious though what you think should be determined at the fittings? Aside from the length of the jacket and the sleeves, I find it hard to tell what's going on. With all the basting and how the shoulders and chest are usually cut (larger than normal), I'm not sure what should be said.

I do think it's useful for customers to separate fit from style. A jacket might not be to your stylistic taste, but it could still fit perfectly and have excellent workmanship. Sometimes that sort of thing gets conflated into fit on this forum, which confuses things. I wouldn't accept a jacket that doesn't fit, but I accept that stylistic details might turn out differently than originally imagined.



dieworkwear said:

Solito does nice work though, especially if you ask for a more traditional cut (rather than slim and short). Panico and Iorio are also great.

Click to expand...

Funny you mention Raffaele Iorio. He doesn't get mentioned a lot on this board, blogs or instagram. Or have you seen some of his stuff irl?

dieworkwear said:

I haven't seen the non-Paone stuff from Rubinacci, but it might be worth stopping by their store.

Click to expand...

Why no mention of the post-Rubinacci Gennaro Paone stuff? Imo his work is certainly up there with his contemporaries Gennaro Solito, Antonio Panico and Raffaele Iorio that you do mention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsuperb View Post


None whatsoever, however, you may have high expectations of the tailors recommended and be let down. You will have to find out what works for you.




Understood. I have experience with multiple bespoke tailors, based here in the U.S. and overseas. Hearing the perspective of others, especially in comparing many of a similar style is still of value and interest to me.



gdl203 said:

can we agree that not every fit "problem" is always the tailor's fault?

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

I've attended A LOT of fittings in the last couple years and it is clear to me that some customers are unable to articulate their preferences clearly, even when they have two opportunities to do so (order and basted fitting). Not to mention that customers (especially those with little experience with bespoke) are sometimes plain wrong about their requests or assessment (I know I have been one of those guys) - it takes time and some wear to understand what is a good fit, and then again to articulate some of those preferences clearly.

Click to expand...

Great chart by the way. I suggest reworking this for new members so they know how to navigate this forum.