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Leather Quality and Properties - Page 78

post #1156 of 1279
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post
 

 

 

post #1157 of 1279
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I think a lot of that is finish although younger animal would undoubtedly have a tighter grain structure. I think it was Thornton who suggested that prime "milk" calf skins (smoothest grain) for women's shoes, would top out at 4-5 square feet. Imagine how small the animal must be to only have a hide 2'x2'.

Thornton also says that the best European calf...suitable for men's work...would usually be 7-10 sq.ft. That's still a very young, very small animal.

But the trend these days is less finish, crust, and older animals. so the grain surface is coarser. Every hair follicle is visible on some leathers.

I find this pretty interesting. I work with French boxcalf, as well as Spanish baby calf that average around 8-9 square feet. As you are well aware, the leather from younger animals has a denser structure (one of the reasons I stay away from split cowhide, even when the grain is intact), but the leather is thinner. I'd like to get your thoughts on this. The calf is noticeably thicker than the baby calf, but how much more durable is it really?

My question would also apply to the case of kidskins I've recently started using. They're absolutely tiny...about 2 sq ft! I wonder how these would compare to goat in terms of durability and strength.
post #1158 of 1279
Quote:
Originally Posted by dibadiba View Post

I find this pretty interesting. I work with French boxcalf, as well as Spanish baby calf that average around 8-9 square feet. As you are well aware, the leather from younger animals has a denser structure (one of the reasons I stay away from split cowhide, even when the grain is intact), but the leather is thinner. I'd like to get your thoughts on this. The calf is noticeably thicker than the baby calf, but how much more durable is it really?

My question would also apply to the case of kidskins I've recently started using. They're absolutely tiny...about 2 sq ft! I wonder how these would compare to goat in terms of durability and strength.

I'd be interested in knowing where you're getting French boxcalf. And even the Spanish baby calf. ?? My sources seem to be drying up.

When we talk about "durable" we have to qualify the term--do we mean tensile strength? Wear resistance? The tensile strength of the thicker skin will...up to a point...be greater than the thinner skin. That said, kangaroo is much stronger for its thickness than calf. But as long as we're talking about calf...as opposed to cow...I'd say thicker is stronger.

Tensile strength doesn't necessarily equal durability, however. If the leather is dry or cracks before its time, it doesn't make any difference how strong it was initially. And a lot of that has to do with tannages and finish.

As for kid skins...I don't work with them much. I was always taught that kid skin would peel. You see that regularly on women's shoes which are often made of kid.

Also kid and goat tend to be very "open"--the pores and hair follicles need to be painted over to make the surface acceptable. For example, I don't think you would want to use a crust kid. Or a crust goat. That's why kid and goat are available in so many and such bright colours--it's a "paint job." I have worked with goat a bit and use it for bright tops that are well protected. It doesn't seem as prone to peeling as kid.

Having just received a shipment of nice calf from A.A. Crack, and noting...as I did above...that it is thinner than I am used to, I am almost inclined to reconsider using kangaroo for men's dress shoes.

Kangaroo has one of the tightest grain structures I've ever seen and it is one the strongest leathers for its weight known to man. If the really good calf is going to come in not much larger than kangaroo and not significantly thicker, there doesn't seem much to be gained by using it. And good quality 'roo is available.

Anyway, those are my thoughts...for what they're worth.

--
Edited by DWFII - 3/14/14 at 7:12am
post #1159 of 1279
Hmm, does kangaroo look significantly different than calf? (leather, not animal) I've never, that I know of, come across it in the wild, (either hopping around, or on somebody's feet).
post #1160 of 1279
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Hmm, does kangaroo look significantly different than calf? (leather, not animal) I've never, that I know of, come across it in the wild, (either hopping around, or on somebody's feet).

I'd be interested in hearing about how kangaroo turns out when made up into real shoes. The only place I've come across it is soccer boots, where it remains the material of choice for its strength, lightness, ability to mould to the shape of the foot, and breathability.
post #1161 of 1279
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Kangaroo has one of the tightest grain structures I've ever seen and it is one the strongest leathers for its weight known to man. If the really good calf is going to come in not much larger than kangaroo and not significantly thicker, there doesn't seem much to be gained by using it. And good quality 'roo is available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Hmm, does kangaroo look significantly different than calf? (leather, not animal) I've never, that I know of, come across it in the wild, (either hopping around, or on somebody's feet).

I have a very limited experience with it only because kangaroo leather has been used on saxophone pads for the last decade or so, at least at the professional level.
http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/pad-s30.html
From the above link:

"Kangaroo leather is one of the strongest light weight leathers available. Kangaroo has been shown to have a highly uniform orientation of fibre bundles in parallel with the skin surface. It does not contain sweat glands or erector pili muscles and elastin is evenly distributed throughout the skin thickness. This structural uniformity explains the greater tensile strength of the leather.

This results in amazing abrasion and tear resistance, which are just the qualities a saxophonist needs. To test the leather, we snip the edge of the hide with scissors and attempt to tear the leather by hand. If it can be torn, we don`t use it.

Why are RooPads™ kangaroo pads better?
RooPads™ don`t stick! (isn`t that enough?)
RooPads™ reduce pad noise!
RooPads™ offer a firm professional feel!
RooPads™ leather is the most durable!
Finally! A firm and extremely durable Saxophone pad that does not stick and will not make noise. Why choose anything else?"

They really don't stick as much as the regular (calf? cow?) pads do. Not exactly sure why that is, but it does work great for saxophones.
post #1162 of 1279
I know that Australian boot company Williams something makes their boots with kangaroo leather, but I have never handled one in person.

Could Roo be the new shell!?!?!? Buy futures.
post #1163 of 1279
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Hmm, does kangaroo look significantly different than calf? (leather, not animal) I've never, that I know of, come across it in the wild, (either hopping around, or on somebody's feet).

At first glance not significantly different. But I can see the difference. I can see it in the grain surface/structure.
post #1164 of 1279
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGimpy View Post

I'd be interested in hearing about how kangaroo turns out when made up into real shoes. The only place I've come across it is soccer boots, where it remains the material of choice for its strength, lightness, ability to mould to the shape of the foot, and breathability.

No reason for it not to be superb in "real shoes." This is, however, an example of how tanning and finishing can make a big difference. Kangaroo used for dress shoes would look significantly different from 'roo used for soccer boots.

I have not had an opportunity to make shoes from kangaroo (heading in that direction, however) but I have made a number of pairs of boots from roo. some photos (click for larger view)...

Oil stuffed veg 'roo...whole boot



Chrome tanned, aniline dyed, Italian-tanned 'roo, top to bottom



Italian 'roo, glazed, bone and black

post #1165 of 1279
Dammit. Now, I want some.
post #1166 of 1279
Patrick, that makes two of us. Ever since I saw some old 'roo pairs from Isshi's collection, I've wanted to give a go for this excellent, tough leather. I did some research for a Keikari post now in the archives, and I came to understand why factories have abandoned it in EU and USA. It looks like calf but lasts so much better that makers would lose money by using kangaroo. A shoe addict's choice, I'm sure.
post #1167 of 1279
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Dammit. Now, I want some.

Uh oh....something other than black shoes? I'm feeling a disturbance in the force....

DW - Beautiful boots.
post #1168 of 1279
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Dammit. Now, I want some.

I've never seen kangaroo leather crack, so I reckon your on to a winner mate.
post #1169 of 1279
Quote:
Originally Posted by LynahFaithful View Post

Uh oh....something other than black shoes? I'm feeling a disturbance in the force....

DW - Beautiful boots.

Don't get me wrong, they would of course be black. Kangaroos can be dyed too you know.
post #1170 of 1279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stirling View Post

I've never seen kangaroo leather crack, so I reckon your on to a winner mate.

It does, though.
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