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The OneShirt: A Phoenix from the Ashes [4/24/13 UPDATE: A SHIRTMAKER, AN ENGLISHMAN, CHAMBRAY,... - Page 16

post #226 of 1166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teger View Post

i mean, this whole getup sounds goofy to me. like.. i totally understand the appeal of just having 15 or however many of the same shirt, but you're picking such strange, ultra specific details that it almost seems as if you're picking them to have a unique shirt.

You're seeing things how you want to see them. There is absolutely nothing strange about the shirt I'm talking about--with the exception of the single cuffs. You clearly get some kind of rise out of pretending I'm entirely out of touch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teger View Post

but still, that's your prerogative. just like it's everyone else's prerogative to discuss the merits of single cuff shirts and cufflinks.

No, because it is a simple fact that cuffs made to be linked with cufflinks and which can only be worn with cufflinks are in fact wearable with cufflinks. Going on and on about it is truly absurd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teger View Post

you don't think your atypical experience with riva shirting is worthy of note? also, it blows my mind that you aren't fuming about paying however much a shirt and having the shirts fall apart a year later. you really have a masochistic streak when it comes to tailoring.

No, because it's not so atypical. Others admit their shirting is fraying too. Also, I've had mine longer than those who have spoken up. I should think people would value the warning of someone who's already tread the path.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

I thought the consensus was no placket was the way to go. I find ironing the placket quite a hassle (not that I actually iron my shirts myself these days but if I did, I would).

I like the cleaner look of going without. Also, as you point out, it makes ironing easier.
post #227 of 1166
Thread Starter 
Also, you guys do realize I was in the habit of wearing shirts prior to starting this thread, right? The only potential divergence from the design of my pre-existing shirts is the single cuff. None of what I'm talking about is nearly as troubling or vexing as is being made out.
post #228 of 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

I thought the consensus was no placket was the way to go. I find ironing the placket quite a hassle (not that I actually iron my shirts myself these days but if I did, I would).

You know that you don't actually have to go in between the buttons, right? I had to iron my shirts myself when I was in university, and it took bloody long until I decided to go see how salespeople were doing it. They just flip the shirt around, and iron and steam the shirt from the inside, over the buttons. One pass if you have a good iron, a couple otherwise.
post #229 of 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by bboysdontcryy View Post

You know that you don't actually have to go in between the buttons, right? I had to iron my shirts myself when I was in university, and it took bloody long until I decided to go see how salespeople were doing it. They just flip the shirt around, and iron and steam the shirt from the back, over the buttons. One pass if you have a good iron, a couple otherwise.

Yeah I know but it doesn't always come out right. Sometimes the placket gets creased.
post #230 of 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

It's just odd that this thread has inspired people to question whether linked cuffs can be worn with cufflinks, whethercertain shirting is actually fragile when I'm watching it disintegrate before my very eyess, and whether French cuffs can be engineered without gauntlet buttons when half the population of Styleforum has French cuffs without gauntlet buttons.

Actually, I've checked my shirts again, and most of the fraying is not visible (confined to the bottom inside edge of the shirt, where the buttons line the shirt-front). However, if in fact Riva mostly weaves 170 or 180/2 fabrics, it makes perfect sense that these will fray faster than the heavier, 120/2 fabrics, which I use. Does not mean anything with regards to quality, but a finer shirt will disintegrate faster.

So no, I don't think it's a big deal either.

Just comes down to what you prefer.

I guess I'm fortunate that we in Sydney have Charles Nakhle. a respected, world-class shirtmaker whose pricing structure is extremely reasonable ($265AUD for a shirt in SIC Tess 120/2 fabric; and I think the most he charges is about $300-$350AUD for finer fabric).
post #231 of 1166
I just found this thread and haven't ploughed through it, so my comments may
be redundant. I do recall that you were purchasing (and documenting) Anna
Matuozzo bespoke hand made shirts several years ago. At the time I was
very impressed, but remembered my alterations tailor in Chicgao, who
had been chief tailor at Ultimo, saying that hand stitched garments- Oxxford
specifically, tended to come apart. So it turns out that they are not coming apart
but fraying. I have worn T &A shirts, not exclusively, for over thirty years. They
are RTW. They have never frayed. It is true that I do not wear dress shirts regularly
anymore, but I have some T&As which 10-15 years old and are wearable.
They have been laundered by the local high-end laundries. T &A and H&K
(which I also wear) have bespoke operations. You might wish to check
them out.
post #232 of 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

Would you rather we go back to gauntlet buttons? On the other hand, we have yet to really discuss the demerits of front plackets (since obviously, they have no merits).
I pretty much always get a placket. But my first custom shirts, made in Zamboanga in 1997, had plain fronts. They were modeled after my favorite shirts from the 80's and 90's: those Perry Ellis ones with pleats at the shoulder. I kept all details the same, except for asking them to sew up the bottom two-three inches of the folded fabric on the fronts. That created hidden pockets where I'd slip a couple cards and money if I was traveling through rough areas.

A few years ago, I found one of those shirts and thought of getting some shirts made w/ the same fronts. Parker suggested I stick w/ plackets since, I believe, he thought they were more supportive. So I have.

ps: fwiw, I'm w/ Foo on the lack of gauntlet buttons. I think I'm against on all the other details though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bboysdontcryy View Post

Always thought that shirts with plackets are less dressy in comparison with shirts that sport a plain front ....

I agree w/ this for shirts worn w/ ties, but really casual shirts, like camp shirts, often have no/french plackets.

And I think something similar is true about spread collars. We tend to think of spread collars as "dressy," but very casual shirts not intended to be worn w/ ties often have spread collars. I'm thinking of chambray or denim work shirts. I have old ones from LL Bean and Wrangler, for example that have a nice, moderate spread collars. I now prefer all of my dress shirts to have unlined collars, whether spread or buttondown. Both look great w/ or w/o a tie imo. The key, imo, to having dress, spread-collared shirts look good w/o a tie is to have soft, floppy collars.
post #233 of 1166
Matt,

It makes absolutely no difference how long you have had the Riva shirts if after 20 washes yours were fraying and the rest of us only start noticing some discolouration after 60 -80 washes. BTW, my family has been buying shirting and socks at Buonanno in Naples for longer that you had a PC, and Buonanno sells virtually esclusivly Riva (and Sozzi socks ), and if the shirting were so fragile as you imply we would have stopped long ago. My most recent shirts in rotation go back max 3 years, but I never worn shirt with any fraying visible at all, as I get rid of them usually before for other reasons. Re-reading your comments on "points"(angles points) fraying first, it just occurred to me that the way AM construct and/or turn those points may be the source of the problem after all ... Food for thoughts...
post #234 of 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Y View Post

I must just not get the appeal of casual single cuffs, and these pictures show exactly why. They look like someone's home craft project, especially with the button cuff links. Single-cuffs only look right to me in the context of formalwear: stiff interlining, white cloth, metallic links. To paraphrase our resident (young) architect, the design of the cuff is inauthentic to the material used --- it's trying to pretend to be something it's not.

 

They're unfastened in those pics, but anyways, I think you're right. That's why I always use my convertible cuffs as barrel cuffs (and if I was ordering a custom shirt it would never come with single / convertible cuffs)

post #235 of 1166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post

And I think something similar is true about spread collars. We tend to think of spread collars as "dressy," but very casual shirts not intended to be worn w/ ties often have spread collars. I'm thinking of chambray or denim work shirts. I have old ones from LL Bean and Wrangler, for example that have a nice, moderate spread collars. I now prefer all of my dress shirts to have unlined collars, whether spread or buttondown. Both look great w/ or w/o a tie imo. The key, imo, to having dress, spread-collared shirts look good w/o a tie is to have soft, floppy collars.

Yeah, this is why I really don't think the choice matters in terms of formality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcodalondra View Post

Matt,It makes absolutely no difference how long you have had the Riva shirts if after 20 washes yours were fraying and the rest of us only start noticing some discolouration after 60 -80 washes. BTW, my family has been buying shirting and socks at Buonanno in Naples for longer that you had a PC, and Buonanno sells virtually esclusivly Riva (and Sozzi socks ), and if the shirting were so fragile as you imply we would have stopped long ago. My most recent shirts in rotation go back max 3 years, but I never worn shirt with any fraying visible at all, as I get rid of them usually before for other reasons. Re-reading your comments on "points"(angles points) fraying first, it just occurred to me that the way AM construct and/or turn those points may be the source of the problem after all ... Food for thoughts...

Who's the rest of us? I don't recall anyone else in this thread who's claimed to have washed their Riva shirts 60-80 times without seeing any wear. ColdEyedPugilist above has washed his 20-30 times and is already experiencing fraying--apparently not where it can be seen when worn, but fraying is fraying. I've got no reason to lie about it myself. Back when I first started using Riva, very few others on the forum had any experience with it. I am simply being helpful. Funny thing is, back when I was happy with my Riva shirts, people like you accused me of being a shill and a neophyte. I think I know what's really going on here.

In nearly every discussion I take part of, you inject the same color of commentary: "I am from Naples and you are not, so what do you know about things from Naples?" Well, I know what I see, I explain myself carefully, and I don't expect anyone to credit me with expertise. Yet, I could comment that Naples is a city in southern Italy, and you'd no doubt argue with me about it because I'm not an "expert." This is getting really effing old.
post #236 of 1166
no placket is the mark of a gigolo
post #237 of 1166
I thought single cuffs were pretty popular in Italy - perhaps even more so than double cuffs (at least for those not buying otr shirts). This loke should help you completely transform, once and for all, into an Italian if nothing else....

Oddly, all my cuffs were single cuffs back in 1998 or so, as the MTM shirt guy I used really loved them. Some were made with a fabric tab of some sort that eliminated the need for links, though I never got those myself. I did a kind of "one shirt" back then with end-on-end fabric (don't know the proper name). Anyway, I found my single cuffs all frayed very quickly at the square edge of the cuff, though the end-on-end seems to universally wear very quickly. So maybe it was the fabric, but I suspect it was really the consequence of having a squared cuff edge hanging out. There instead of being "protected" in a barrel.
post #238 of 1166
I am not in Italy as often as some, but I don't see link cuffs of either kind there very much. The vast majority are wearing buttons. I asked the guys at Battistoni about this once and they said that in Italy FC was for weddings and such, most men had one such shirt and rarely wore it. They said that they make lots of FC shirts for Americans but very few for Italians.
post #239 of 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Yeah, this is why I really don't think the choice matters in terms of formality.
Who's the rest of us? I don't recall anyone else in this thread who's claimed to have washed their Riva shirts 60-80 times without seeing any wear. ColdEyedPugilist above has washed his 20-30 times and is already experiencing fraying--apparently not where it can be seen when worn, but fraying is fraying. I've got no reason to lie about it myself. Back when I first started using Riva, very few others on the forum had any experience with it. I am simply being helpful. Funny thing is, back when I was happy with my Riva shirts, people like you accused me of being a shill and a neophyte. I think I know what's really going on here.

In nearly every discussion I take part of, you inject the same color of commentary: "I am from Naples and you are not, so what do you know about things from Naples?" Well, I know what I see, I explain myself carefully, and I don't expect anyone to credit me with expertise. Yet, I could comment that Naples is a city in southern Italy, and you'd no doubt argue with me about it because I'm not an "expert." This is getting really effing old.

As I said I would not have gone all riva, and I personally do not do it as shirt/fabric combo needs to be different for each intended use IMO.

The problem with your commentary,as many other have noted even not being from Naples, is that you make it sound as absolute truths, when clearly is your view based on only YOUR LIMITED experience or particular situation, as was your commentary on the Sartorial London thread, e.g. generalising everything after a limited visit. Me and other family members have had shirt made by several shirtmakers over the years, in Riva and other fabrics. Clearly Riva is a more refined shirting at 180/2 then a 120/2 or less, and we have always threated as such, as we would not want all our suiting in 100% cashmere . Still your shirt lifespan does not seem to be the norm.

The really funny things, is that you go from one extreme to another, riva best to riva worst ever, AM best shirtmaker in the world to be worth the price, to not be worth the price anymore and then recently also talking about the real reason being service and/or honesty.

In any case this is a forum, you post about your experience, expertise and knowledge and other do the same to offer possibly to other readers amore balanced view rather then the Mafoofan ONE truth. BTW I am not saying you are lying about your shirts, why would you, but your experience with the one shirting/shirtmaking combo may not be all due to the shirting faults...
post #240 of 1166
Sorry for typos. Typing on telephone waiting for boat to come around (because this is such a vital topic /sarcasm). By the way, just to hijack this thread, I'm about to be the fourth crew member in this:

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Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › The OneShirt: A Phoenix from the Ashes [4/24/13 UPDATE: A SHIRTMAKER, AN ENGLISHMAN, CHAMBRAY, AND FIRE]