St. Crispin's Appreciation Thread

JoeGat said:

I always have a few pairs of bespoke Cleverleys, bespoke Lobb of SJ and especially bespoke Lobb of Paris in my wardrobe, which are all amazingly comfortable footwear, of course, and NONE of these shoes has extra room ahead of the big toe, none of them.

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Dr No said:

Well toe allowance must depend on last toe shape. A pointier last must have allowance, whereas a rounded last could work with shorter allowance.

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bengal-stripe said:

I do not know if Saint Crispin or Philip Car believe a toe allowance (the empty space between the end of the toes and the end of the shoe) as short as 1/4” (6 mm) to be a good fit, but to me this is extremely short and likely to cause a sub-optimal fit (resulting in grown-in toe nails and bunions) .
Here is the other extreme, a fitting by Lobb, Paris with a toe allowance in excess of 30 mm

Here is the full photo feature
http://openers.jp/fashion/fashion_special/photo_tokyo_elements10.html
and here the discussion in this forum a few years back
http://www.styleforum.net/t/61535/photos-of-jlp-bespoke-fitting
Too short and too wide is also the most likely explanation for the crease forming within the toe cap here.
The end of the (relatively long) toe cap exceeds the point where the toes bend which is in turn defined by the position of the ball line. The length from ball to heel is one of the most important measurements in shoe fitting.
Presumably like all things in life, the golden rule is moderation, which would be a toe allowance of somewhere between 16 – 22 mm. If you are happy with 6 mm toe allowance, good for you. But it’s really not something one “should try at home”.

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Dr No said:

Well toe allowance must depend on last toe shape. A pointier last must have allowance, whereas a rounded last could work with shorter allowance.

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JoeGat said:

Thanks Bengal, really great post.

Honestly? If you tried to convince me to buy a pair of shoes with 30mm toe allowance, well, unless I was using them in some circus act, I would not be interested.

I might ask Msr Patrick Verdillon what the exact allowance is on my bespokes. I know they look and feel like no more than 1/4 inch, and nope, no bunions, all the toenails are looking good, all the moving parts on my foot still work really well.

Looking under the shoes (and I wish I had a photo), I can see a distinct "shadow" of the foot, including the big toe, and that shadow looks to be about 3/4 inch from the leading edge of the toe.


Your assessment of 16-22mm is about where the average EG and JL fits for me though, you seem to be 100% spot on there. The two G&G I own are slightly longer and, strangely enough, sizing down one and up one width was no solution in the store either, so I am going to spend some time during 2013 experimenting with G&G to find the perfect MTO fit for me.

But it will NOT be 30mm Bengal!! ;-)



16-22mm for MTO and RTW sounds about right.... but again, I will strongly stand by what I say about SC, and yes, it know could just be my specific shape of foot, but since I sized down 1/2 size from TTS and up a width I have achieved a fit and comfort from my SCs which are VERY close to any bespoke shoe I own.

(I loved the links by the way, thanks for that)

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bengal-stripe said:

A length allowance in front of the toe is an absolutely essential part of a well-fitting shoe. Without it your foot would hit the front of the toe cap with every step. Your Cleverley, Lobb (Paris), Lobb (London) shoes will definitely have an empty space in front of the toes.
The shoes would not fit otherwise.
Up into the 1940s three (English) sizes ( 1” or 25 mm), would have been the standard for a ‘West-End’ shoe. These days two sizes (19 mm) is about the average.
Yes, the necessary toe allowance does depend on the shape of the toe, as this illustration shows:

You can do that very easily with a bespoke last as the length between heel and ball would not change, the ball of the last would correspond with the ball of your foot. (Just as some people of equal height have long waist (torso) and short legs and others have short waist/long legs; so do some people have a short, others a long back foot.) But if you size a ready-to-wear last either up or down the ball/heel length will change as all measurements will change proportionately.

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JoeGat said:

Quite right Bengal.


Actually, your illustration looks a lot like a pair of JM Westons I had bespoke produced for me some years ago. Although they are comfortable to wear, the space ahead of the toe simply feels too unnatural.

They are very elegant wholecuts but, because of the extension ahead of the toe the sole wears too quickly and the creasing on the vamp is excessive, especially around the forward toe area. Not my favorite shoes by a long chalk.

They remind me of shoes I wore as a kid, you know, when your mother buys them slightly bigger so that you can "grow into them". These JMW are the perfect size from heel to the treadline and so they are really perfectly sized, it is just the additional room ahead of the toe which is annoying.

But you are correct, the distance to the treadline, or ball, is a determining factor. RTW and MTO never get this perfect, in my experience, and at best you get a tolerable fit which can be fairly comfortable.

But I was not referring to "comfortable fit" here, I was referring at all times to "bespoke fit", and the closest bespoke fit in a RTW for me (and that is just me) has been the SC in a size smaller than my typical RTW size.

I prefer a shoe which is fairly rigid from the breast of the shoe, at the treadline, through to the forward tip of the shoe. That way the creasing is limited to the natural form of the foot without unnatural forces being added when the shoe extends too far ahead.

Of course, an extended toe also adds a leveraging effect which produces additional stresses transferred to the leather upper. Not sure about everyone else, but I have always found that extension to be the most common cause of those strange or unnatural creases forming in unwanted places across the face of the shoe.

This is why I tend to round off of slightly square off a shoe when I order a style, to avoid unnecessary length ahead of the toe.

Long protrusions ahead of the toe might be other people's cup of tea, look at the Italians and the French, they love that sort of thing, but I prefer my shoes to be a nice tight fit conforming nicely to the shape of my foot all round.

If a leather shoe is not a perfect fit, why even use leather? Why not just go out and buy a nice pair of standard one-size-fits-all synthetic leather Nikes? They can be really comfortable at two sizes larger than TTS and at a whole lot less cost.

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TehBunny said:

Might be cause of the crazy chisel? Not too sure though I have very short wide feet (Woot Hobbit in Teh House!!!) and I must settle for the extra room; when I go bespoke I'll be sure to answer...

...whenever that is

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PiedBeau said:

Fitting pics at Anthony Delos.





( source : http://engrandepompe.forumpersos.com/t321-anthony-delos )
So i guess he has it all wrong...

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medtech_expat said:

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