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shoe construction...behind the veil - Page 50

post #736 of 744
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


But you don't believe that screws directly over and into the inseam will cause damage?
True enough. But once they are removed...esp. screws in the inseam...what do you think the impact on the inseam will be going forward. Do those holes or that damage strengthen the shoe? Do they make it easier for a repairman (or even the maker) to retain or recapture the original structural integrity of the shoe? What does it mean to the end user that his shoes may have damage that doesn't come from ordinary wear and tear?

I guess if we don't think about it too much or too deeply its doesn't make any difference at all.

 

Those are double (or triple?) sole shoes.  Assuming standard 5mm outsole thickness, double sole is 10mm.

 

A 3.5mm nail is not going to penetrate 10mm thickness double sole, thus not going to touch the inseam.

 

EDIT: and of course, it can, if a 5" nail/screw is used.  But everything can happen doesnt mean it will/should.

post #737 of 744
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

"You don't know what you are talking about" is the perfect conclusion when you have neither the expertise on foot physiology/pathology nor the data points to prove your point on the issues of flushed metal toe plates. 

No, I reserve that one for people who pipe dream about things they have zero experience with...and have the gall to advise others about. You don't even understand the meaning of "toe spring."
Quote:
You are a shoemaker, not a foot doctor or an orthotics maker.

And what are you? What are you to be pontificating about matters which you know nothing about? Are we talking about shoes? Do not feet go in shoes? Is not the way the shoe and the foot interact critical to this discussion? Apparently not to you...

I don't think you really understand even that despite the probability that you wear shoes.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 7/22/15 at 11:55am
post #738 of 744
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Those are double (or triple?) sole shoes.  Assuming standard 5mm outsole thickness, double sole is 10mm.

I don't know what you're talking about. Do you?

AFAIK, we were talking about flush mounted toe plates and double or triple outsole never entered into it. Why do I think we were talking about flush mounted toe plates with no reference to double soles?

Because YOU made this post and set the parameters. You said the screw was 6.35mm long. I just pointed out how faulty your math and reasoning was, is all.

Try to stay focused here.








Dang!! There I go again...

memo to self:

s

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 7/22/15 at 11:59am
post #739 of 744
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

I do believe, that those screws (probably 3.5 mm) will cause damage, particular as they seem to sit directly on top of the out-seam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

But you don't believe that screws directly over and into the inseam will cause damage?

Don't forget the stitches in the outseam are far closer together than those in the inseam. So the chance of hitting the outseam stitches full on (particular with the huge screws used in the mountaineering boot) and cutting them is far greater. I have just put one of the Triumph plates (the ones with the screws far away from the front edge) onto a fully-prepared insole and the screw holes will hit the centre of the holdfast. Stitch length for insoling is about 4 stitches/inch. Between every "tunnel" where the stitches cross under the holdfast, there is at least 5 mm clearing where there are no stitches underneath. So the chances the screw will go in without hitting a stitch are quite high. If the screw hit the thread, it might be tangential or, worst case scenario full onto the thread. But whether a 2 mm screw can cut a twisted thread in its entirety, has to bee seen.

How big are the chances that 3 screws will hit and cut the same thread in three different places?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

But, torn thread or not, as long as the screws are in place, they will hold it all together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

True enough. But once they are removed...esp. screws in the inseam...what do you think the impact on the inseam will be going forward.

But the screws do not need to be removed until the shoes need resoling. Once the sole has been romoved, you see clearly whether or not there is some damage. Although I still believe, it is the act of ripping-off that causes the greatest damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I guess if we don't think about it too much or too deeply its doesn't make any difference at all.

Why should I worry today about a re-soling job that might or might not come in 10 years time. For all I know, I might have kicked the bucket before that or the shoes got ruined in some other way, that has nothing to do with 'structural integrity'. Several years ago, I dropped a big dollop of raspberry ice cream onto a light suede shoe. The shoes had to go into the bin, regardless of the condition of sole or toe.
post #740 of 744
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post


Several years ago, I dropped a big dollop of raspberry ice cream onto a light suede shoe. The shoes had to go into the bin, regardless of the condition of sole or toe.

Damn. I hope they weren't bespoke....
post #741 of 744
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrybrowne View Post

Damn. I hope they weren't bespoke....

No, they weren't bespoke.

Today, one of those 'Patina Artists' might do a good job in dying the whole pair pink and scatter 'hundreds and thousands' (sprinkles) all over.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprinkles

But those artists weren't around back then. So the shoes had to go.
post #742 of 744
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

Why should I worry today about a re-soling job that might or might not come in 10 years time. For all I know, I might have kicked the bucket before that or the shoes got ruined in some other way, that has nothing to do with 'structural integrity'. Several years ago, I dropped a big dollop of raspberry ice cream onto a light suede shoe. The shoes had to go into the bin, regardless of the condition of sole or toe.

Maybe you shouldn't. Many won't. But some here do consider such things important. These are generally the same people who consider pick stitching important or consider the difference between fused and canvas jackets important. And from talking to shoemakers around the world, I suspect that most bespoke shoemakers would consider it important...and worry about it.

I know...what shoemakers think isn't your look-out. And I get it...once you buy the shoes they're yours to defend like you'd defend your wife and family, warts and all, or to toss aside at your whim.

Thing is if we're asking "what are the chances?" my response would be...if I thought it would fall on fertile ground..."what are your chances in Russian Roulette?" Because the real question isn't what are the chances this bullet will get me, but how many times can I do this before some bullet does? And the corollary question "Why in the world do you want to play Russian Roulette, in the first place?"

All this reminds me of the Mad magazine character Alfred E. Neuman. His motto...which IIRC, appeared on the cover of every issue...was also "What?! Me worry?"

And there never was a more idiotic or vacant looking countenance.

No offense, I just don't associate the "don't worry" mantra with people who claim to value quality. Although I guess if you've got enough money...
post #743 of 744
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


But you don't believe that screws directly over and into the inseam will cause damage?
True enough. But once they are removed...esp. screws in the inseam...what do you think the impact on the inseam will be going forward. Do those holes or that damage strengthen the shoe? Do they make it easier for a repairman (or even the maker) to retain or recapture the original structural integrity of the shoe? What does it mean to the end user that his shoes may have damage that doesn't come from ordinary wear and tear?

I guess if we don't think about it too much or too deeply its doesn't make any difference at all.


Here you have quoted BStripe's post about that C&J boots with cleats and metal toe taps.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


I don't know what you're talking about. Do you?

AFAIK, we were talking about flush mounted toe plates and double or triple outsole never entered into it. Why do I think we were talking about flush mounted toe plates with no reference to double soles?

Because YOU made this post and set the parameters. You said the screw was 6.35mm long. I just pointed out how faulty your math and reasoning was, is all.

Try to stay focused here.








Dang!! There I go again...

memo to self:

s

edited for punctuation and clarity

 

You've quoted BStripe's post about C&J shoes w/ cleats, in which he stated those nails are probably 3.5mm long.

 

Then, I've responded that that pair looks like a double sole or maybe a triple sole. 

 

With sole thickness of 5mm thick, a double sole will be 10mm thick, thus 3.5mm is not going to touch the inseam at all and shall not cause damage.  Even at 6.35mm long screw will not touch inseam.

 

Enough to help you follow your own trolling effort?

post #744 of 744
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Maybe you shouldn't. Many won't. But some here do consider such things important. These are generally the same people who consider pick stitching important or consider the difference between fused and canvas jackets important. And from talking to shoemakers around the world, I suspect that most bespoke shoemakers would consider it important...and worry about it.

I know...what shoemakers think isn't your look-out. And I get it...once you buy the shoes they're yours to defend like you'd defend your wife and family, warts and all, or to toss aside at your whim.

Thing is if we're asking "what are the chances?" my response would be...if I thought it would fall on fertile ground..."what are your chances in Russian Roulette?" Because the real question isn't what are the chances this bullet will get me, but how many times can I do this before some bullet does? And the corollary question "Why in the world do you want to play Russian Roulette, in the first place?"

All this reminds me of the Mad magazine character Alfred E. Neuman. His motto...which IIRC, appeared on the cover of every issue...was also "What?! Me worry?"

And there never was a more idiotic or vacant looking countenance.

No offense, I just don't associate the "don't worry" mantra with people who claim to value quality. Although I guess if you've got enough money...

 

Such a stern believer of Murphy's Law. 

 

For a shoemaker/cobbler such as yourself, its perfectly fine since you make and repair your own shoes.

 

For all others, we have to live with Murphy's Law and trust that

1) shoes will be properly made by shoemakers such as yourself, John Lobb St James, and John Lobb RTW,

2) shit is not likely to happen,

3) when shit happens, cobblers such as yourself and @Nick V. knows how to repair, and

4) cobblers will properly repair shoes.

 

I prefer interacting with other people with trust, wear and care for my shoes, not worry about gemming falling apart, pegging falling out, screws falling out, inseam getting damaged, soles splitting from welt, shoes getting stolen, and deal on whatever catastrophe as they happen.

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