History of neck wear

This came up in the course of conversation and ultimately for a presentation I am in the middle of preparing. Do folks here know when we can trace the origin of the modern bow tie and neck tie to?

Many thanks in advance,

Cordovan

Wikipedia is your friend.

The Esquire encyclopedia of men's fashion (title is something like that), publshed around 1973, has a surprisingly thorough and sober summary of the history of neckwear (and many other things--it's a good resource). I have a copy somewhere, but it's not handy. One thing I remember is that bow ties are described as pretty dead & having just seen a mini-resurgence that did not last long or ever really catch on. I got the impression that bowties, (outside of the formal ones,) have always been novelty or casual-wear-only items. And I recall that the history of neckwear is intimately bound-up ( ) with the history of men's shirts and collars. Sometimes a change in the collar led to a change in the tie, and sometimes a taste for a certain kind of tie (or tie knot) led to a change in the shirt & shirt collar. Also of course the history of tie colors & patterns is pretty highly related to the history of common suit & shirt colors & patterns. Go get the book if you need more info that what you find in wikipedia.

Originally Posted by FIHTies

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Wikipedia is your friend.

Thanks - I was looking for a little more specific information, but I did neglect looking there. Surprising as it is often one of the first places I now look for information.

By the way - when are you going to start selling bows?

Cordovan

+1 for Wikipedia.

Their Tie chapter is actually pretty informative.

Originally Posted by Cordovan

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By the way - when are you going to start selling bows? Cordovan
Whats funny is that I had borrowed a bunch of different types of bows to bring to Italy to have a style copied this past January but as luck would have it as I had borrowed them well in advance of my trip, they got left behind. Maybe next trip for delivery in September.

Originally Posted by Dewey

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The Esquire encyclopedia of men's fashion (title is something like that), publshed around 1973, has a surprisingly thorough and sober summary of the history of neckwear (and many other things--it's a good resource). I have a copy somewhere, but it's not handy. One thing I remember is that bow ties are described as pretty dead & having just seen a mini-resurgence that did not last long or ever really catch on. I got the impression that bowties, (outside of the formal ones,) have always been novelty or casual-wear-only items. And I recall that the history of neckwear is intimately bound-up (

) with the history of men's shirts and collars. Sometimes a change in the collar led to a change in the tie, and sometimes a taste for a certain kind of tie (or tie knot) led to a change in the shirt & shirt collar. Also of course the history of tie colors & patterns is pretty highly related to the history of common suit & shirt colors & patterns. Go get the book if you need more info that what you find in wikipedia.

I have the impression that for much of the 19th century bowties were much more common and popular than the long necktie. Perhaps Sator could weigh in on this.

I think today bowties are quite probably perceived as somewhat eccentric but not necessarily more casual than neckties. Decades ago they were. In the early 1950s my father-in-law was called on the carpet for wearing bowties. Management felt they were too casual and frivolous for the steel brokerage firm for which he worked.

Originally Posted by JLibourel

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I think today bowties are quite probably perceived as somewhat eccentric but not necessarily more casual than neckties. Decades ago they were. In the early 1950s my father-in-law was called on the carpet for wearing bowties. Management felt they were too casual and frivolous for the steel brokerage firm for which he worked.

That is a common misconception. Wearing a tie does not make one dressed up. It all depends on the style, material, pattern, etc.

Cordovan

Originally Posted by JLibourel

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I have the impression that for much of the 19th century bowties were much more common and popular than the long necktie. Perhaps Sator could weigh in on this.

I think today bowties are quite probably perceived as somewhat eccentric but not necessarily more casual than neckties. Decades ago they were. In the early 1950s my father-in-law was called on the carpet for wearing bowties. Management felt they were too casual and frivolous for the steel brokerage firm for which he worked.

Yes, I do notice that a lot of 19th century fashion plates show bow ties. Clemenceau wore a bow tie at the signing of the Treaty of Versailles:



However, Wilson and Lloyd George wore long ties. They wore morning dress with frock coats for the more formal occasions. There are other photos where they are more casually (!) dressed in morning or lounge coats:



Again Clemenceau wears a bow tie with his morning coat.

A perusal of a book of Edwardian fashion plates shows an equal mixture of bow ties, long ties and dress cravats. This holds true of all day wear worn with frock coats, morning coats, and lounge coats alike. Cravats tend to be more common with morning dress. A book of fashion plates from the 1890s shows a similar mix. Only once you get into the late 1920's do you really notice that the long tie is beginning to win out over the bow tie for day wear, and the dress cravat falls away into obscurity.

There used to be a much greater variety in men's neckwear, as you can see from this fashion plate dating from 1912:



Where has the huge variety men once enjoyed vanished, I wonder? Perhaps this lack of species diversity is contributing to the gradual extinction of the tie?

Sator,

Where do you find these fashion plates?

I have a large library of them.

Evasive answer. Care to be more direct?

Cordovan