designing home A/V set up, more about music than home theater

Originally Posted by afterglow

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Is there any way for you to mount the TV at a watchable height?? The TV over the fireplace "looks" nice from a designer's point of view but makes for lousy viewing. And you're better off wall mounting the center channel than mounting it in the ceiling.

And if you've heard DefTech and love it, then go for it. But if you're basing the love off of reviews and recommendations, better go audition before making up your mind.

The mantel is only 53" up so its not super high, TV will mount a few inches above that and I am using the low profile Sanus VT-25 which has the tilt feature, so TV will be angled down (can do about 15 degrees of tilt I believe. Hopefully this will work, and I am going plasma so the viewing angle should be better.

For various reasons this is really the only place the TV can go in the room, one wall is totally open to kitchen area, back wall is almost totally open to foyer, other wall has three windows and a door to a porch taking up pretty much all of it, so that only leaves the fireplace wall.

I would love to put the center beneath the TV, but that also is close to impossible the way things are set up. The in ceiling center I choose sounds really good for a inceiling imo. It is angled diagionally out, instead of straight down. When I listened to it, there was no way of telling it was in the ceiling, even though I knew that was where the sound was coming from, it was very strange.

As for the Def. Techs, I have listened to them numerous times now, both against the ML's, the B&W's, and the Paradigm's, and thought they sounded better than all of the above. of course that was listening to the comparablly priced versions of those other brands. I am sure the next level ML's for instance would blow the Def Techs out of the water, but I am not looking to spend that kind of dough, especially as I do not consider myself an audiophile, but more as just a person who enjoys music everyday and entertaining.

went and listened to the PSB Imagine T Towers today, they sounded pretty good, but I am finding the more I listen to speakers in my price range the more I cannot tell much of a difference, whether that be Def. Techs or whatever else....

I did talk to the sales guy who has been in the biz 35+ years and we spoke in depth about ML's and B&W's, and about my specific room. He strongly suggested that while the ML's electrostatic's were wondeful speakers, they would not be a good choose for my room, where there is a need for wider dispersion, and the B&W's would be too 'bright'.

I am interested in audtioning the numerous other suggestions from this thread but am having a hard time locating the products locally. This place had some of the mentioned brands but nothing near my price range... some of their speakers were $50k+ a piece, the PSB's were the only thing they carried anywhere near my price.

I have a suggestion. Pick out an album you know really well, ideally something more acoustic. Take that to the store and see which sounds more natural.

PSB is a really great brand in this price range. I think you will find these better built and sounding than DefTechs over time.

I'm not sure agree with the sales guy on the Martin Logans. The room dimensions you specified should be fine. In fact ML demoed them in a similar-sized room at CEDIA.

MLs have poor dispersion. Besides bad listening for people who aren't sitting in the center (a bad idea for a home theater kind of setup), it also makes them sound bad in many rooms and seemingly room- and position-sensitive.

Be patient with your auditions. Don't try to cram everything in one afternoon. Relax, take breaks, spread it out over several days.

--Andre

Originally Posted by A Y

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MLs have poor dispersion. Besides bad listening for people who aren't sitting in the center (a bad idea for a home theater kind of setup), it also makes them sound bad in many rooms and seemingly room- and position-sensitive. Be patient with your auditions. Don't try to cram everything in one afternoon. Relax, take breaks, spread it out over several days. --Andre
I don't the dispersion pattern limits the listening experience. I tested this by sitting in different area in the CEDIA demo room. I don't think its a big deal anymore. They also have fixed the panel-woofer integration. Martin-Logan considers the dispersion issue to be an advantage... *** What are some advantages of MartinLogan electrostatic speakers? [1] Because the electrostatic diaphragm is essentially massless, it is capable of responding to each individual sonic event with extraordinary speed-from the most subtle background passages to the most explosive transients. There is no lag time which can distort the music. Instead you hear everything as the performer and composer intended. [2] MartinLogan curvilinear line source electrostatic speakers output a more focused dispersion pattern, which maximizes the direct sound field and minimizes the reflected sound fields and room reverberation. This means that you experience more of the program as it was recorded. The sound stage is there, the original room acoustics are preserved and you are transported into the performance. For home theater it means that all of the final mix-effects, dialog and surround-are clearly and accurately reproduced.

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

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I don't the dispersion pattern limits the listening experience. I tested this by sitting in different area in the CEDIA demo room. I don't think its a big deal anymore. They also have fixed the panel-woofer integration.

You need to listen more carefully. It is very easy to tell an ML apart from a wider dispersion speaker in a side-by-side test, and the ML does worse because its frequency response sounds lumpy. And in case you were wondering, this was a double-blind test.

The physical configuration of an ML also automatically affects its dispersion. The panel that outputs the higher frequencies is much larger than the wavelengths of the frequencies it outputs. This makes it directional, and in fact quite ragged since there are all sorts of other resonances that happen on the panel. You can easily see this in the measurements that magazines like Stereophile publish.

[1] Because the electrostatic diaphragm is essentially massless, it is capable of responding to each individual sonic event with extraordinary speed-from the most subtle background passages to the most explosive transients. There is no lag time which can distort the music. Instead you hear everything as the performer and composer intended.

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That is a ridiculous statement. There is no such thing as a massless transducer, because your speaker would explode when you apply any kind of force to it. And if it doesn't (MLs haven't been blowing up), then it would have infinite frequency response. As measured by many reviewers, ML's frequency response is decidedly very finite and limited. And if this wasn't bad enough, a massless transducer cannot make a sound unless you drive it with infinite energy, which is another route to the explodey problem.

It is also a misconception that a massless transducer is ideal. That is not true at all. What you want is for the mass, spring, and damper system formed by the driver to match the medium (air in most cases) it's trying to drive. This is because you are then matching the output impedance of the speaker to the impedance of air. This is why horns are so loud and efficient: their impedance match to air is better than just a cone by itself. Klipsch wrote about this in the 50s. Get with the program.

[2] MartinLogan curvilinear line source electrostatic speakers output a more focused dispersion pattern, which maximizes the direct sound field and minimizes the reflected sound fields and room reverberation. This means that you experience more of the program as it was recorded. The sound stage is there, the original room acoustics are preserved and you are transported into the performance. For home theater it means that all of the final mix-effects, dialog and surround-are clearly and accurately reproduced.

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What they don't say is that the focus changes with frequency. Some frequencies are more beamy than others, so you get lumpy frequency response which in turn causes the character of the speaker to change drastically with rooms and listening material, and not in good ways. And since a speaker's perceived sound is in large part determined by the room, and the room's effects reflect a speaker's dispersion pattern, MLs don't do great in real rooms.

We won't even go into the incompetent way they've integrated a woofer with their panels.

--Andre

I pulled the trigger on the Def Tech.'s as today was the final day I could get the 20% off on them... thankfully I can try them in home for 30 days and return if I want with NO restocking fees or anything, which is pretty sweet.

I am anxious to see how they work in my room, I attached a pic showing it, as you can see clearly not the best room for sound but it is what it is...

Originally Posted by pg600rr

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I pulled the trigger on the Def Tech.'s as today was the final day I could get the 20% off on them... thankfully I can try them in home for 30 days and return if I want with NO restocking fees or anything, which is pretty sweet.

I am anxious to see how they work in my room, I attached a pic showing it, as you can see clearly not the best room for sound but it is what it is...

I don't know I should give you any more advice since your mind was made up on the DefTechs, but if you really want the best possible sound then buy this book:

http://www.getbettersound.com/

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

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I don't know I should give you any more advice since your mind was made up on the DefTechs, but if you really want the best possible sound then buy this book:

http://www.getbettersound.com/

thanks, more advice is def. welcome, as mentioned I pretty much get a free 30 day in home audition with the def. techs so in that time I am planning on continuing to listen to other speakers and doing more research.

Great. You will enjoy it. Also see Robert Harley's book: http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide...2107102&sr=8-1

just ran in to a potential problem... I totally forgot about my cat, of course I never got it declawed, and every now and then it decides to use various household items as a post, even though I bought a scratch post for it.

I am worried about it using the floor speakers/grills as scratch posts, especially with the DEF Tech design (i.e., the full surround sock speaker cover).

Do you think this is a warranted concern? I was actually contemplating cancelling my order in going with some wall mounted speakers like the mythos or some bookshelf style that can be up on stands like the PSB Imagine-B....

Originally Posted by pg600rr

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Do you think this is a warranted concern?

Not if you kill the cat.

Originally Posted by Douglas

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Not if you kill the cat.

I would like to, but unfortunatley not an option...

I was thinking tho, right after i posted, if I were to go with a floor speaker option that looks good with the grill removed, i.e., the PSB Imagine T or B&W 600 series, I could just leave the grill off correct? That is only really on there to protect the speakers from wandering hands and other objects?

Of course this rules out the Def Tech Bi-polars as I am not sure if you can remove the sock surround, or even if they look decent with it removed.

Some others I came across:
Paradigm studio 60's
MA RX6's
Revel F12

Not sure what to do with the cat, but some speakers are designed to be listened to with the grills on (some Paradigms I believe), so if you're going to use a speaker grillless, make sure it's designed to be done that way. Most are. A lot of non-audio people (ie. wives and girlfriends) don't like speakers without grills because it looks too techy.

--Andre

Originally Posted by Douglas

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Not if you kill the cat.

Douglas,

You seemed in the past like a nice guy but today you are going on about killing your grandmother and now this cat. I'm concerned.