What is the traditional British-style cut suit?

I hear many of the qualities I like in suits and shirts described as "British," however I've never come upon a comprehensive definition of what a 100% classic British-style suit would look like. The image I have in my head is like in the pics below, but I frankly had a hard time finding examples on the internet. I'm talking about the basic traditional style, no flashy modern stuff or transient fads (which seems to be what I find on "savile row" websites, or pics of the "Duke of Windsor"), just the basic classic look of the common englishman. The only real definition I have is that it's slimmer fitting than other countries' styles, is that the only difference? Does anyone have any information about this style and/or links to sites with good pics?

Side vents?

There is a huge amount of nonsense written about the stereotypical English, "Continental", Neapolitan etc "silhouette". These generalisations are often a little like those that go "all Brits are like so and so, all Continentals are like so and so, all Neapolitans..." etc. In reality, it differs from tailor to tailor. Henry Poole is highly representative of a typical English cut - cleanly fitted, good chest and quite cleanly and solidly structured.

The Duke of Windsor typifies American rather than British style. He was such a keen Americanophile that he abdicated his kingdom to marry an American. He thought that British customs and way of dressing was stuffy and old fashioned, so he did his best to eshew them.

Here are nice examples of classic West End coats: http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum...?showtopic=203

This is a topic that still continues to perplex me. I believe Manton talked about such distinctions in this article - http://www.ctda.com/newsite/why-2.htm.

Originally Posted by Sator

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Here are nice examples of classic West End coats:

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum...?showtopic=203

I love that Sinclair jacket.

I don't think there is really any one typical English style or cut. There's everything from the structured Military look of Hunstman to the soft drapey style of A&S and everything in-between. Theres also some fashioney stuff from Kilgour and Bowtan(sp?).

Its really whatever the customer wants, just like in most other countries with many different tailors.

Although, I would say that since classic "English" tailoring was derived from military clothes then a very structured look is what it would be.

Originally Posted by Sator

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Henry Poole is highly representative of a typical English cut - cleanly fitted, good chest and quite cleanly and solidly structured.

Note how he very nicely omits any mention of the A&S drape cut.

Originally Posted by Sator

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Henry Poole is highly representative of a typical English cut - cleanly fitted, good chest and quite cleanly and solidly structured.

Note how he very nicely omits any mention of the A&S drape cut.

Originally Posted by Sator

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The Duke of Windsor typifies American rather than British style.

Case in point:
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/british/images/vc290.jpg

Among items available in the States, Ralph Lauren Black Label is what, in my mind, most typifies this style. Side vents, well padded, sharp shoulders but with significant waist suppression, and a lower gorge when compared to current continental suits. RLBL collars and ties also scream "English" to me.

Originally Posted by jamesbond

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There's everything from the structured Military look of Hunstman to the soft drapey style of A&S and everything in-between.
Although, I would say that since classic "English" tailoring was derived from military clothes then a very structured look is what it would be.

Never once have I read a written source saying that the way any British tailor cuts a lounge coat is somehow related to the way a military uniform is cut. It's not really possible to do in any technical sense. Nor has a clean fitted cut ever been considered something "military" at any point in tailoring history over the last 200 years or more. In fact, the tradition of cutting a coat so that it followed the anatomical form of the wearer has always been something that is more of a civilian fashion than a military one. Beau Brummell achieved fame for his fitted coats which were revolutionary at the time, but it was a civilian thing not a military one.

The whole foundation of modern tailor and its emphasis on following the natural anatomical form of the wearer began well before Brummell, who became the poster boy of the movement. Take a look at this portrait of Sir Brooke Boothby from 1781:



If you look carefully, he has a book by Jean Jacques Rousseau in his hand, that Boothby helped to edit. Rousseau is the philosopher of the Natural Man. The style of suit worn by Boothby is form fitting to show off the natural shape of the body. Not only that, he is lying down in a naturalist setting. So once again, the origin of modern tailoring with its emphasis on fit is found to have civilian and philosophical origins rather than a military one.

With respect to structured vs soft, I don't really think there is much in between. Soft coats are like soft apples and soft cars. It's generally not something you want. Ever since tailors in the 14th century started to put a layer of padding into the chest, coats have been meant to have shape. That's what the overwhelming majority of tailors in Britain and elsewhere have striven to achieve over the last 200 years. While there was an anti-tailoring fad that started in the 1930s, before going out of fashion, which involved deliberate misfit involving cutting with flab ("drape") and making up with limp canvas, the mainstream tradition has prevailed. Tailoring by its very nature is all about form, shape and structure.

Originally Posted by Sator

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Soft coats are like soft apples and soft cars. It's generally not something you want.
Soft apples are bad, soft peaches are good. Fruit is a poor yardstick for clothing.

If you look at the vast majority of tailors on the West End, they all make up with proper tailored form and structure to varying extents. The emphasis on the bad apples of the row is something you find only on the internet, which blows their significance grotesquely out of all proportion.

The fitted coat is the higher artform. It is much harder to achieve, and much progress has been made since Brummell's time in attaining that. Less fitted means you need fewer fittings. Soft droop cuts are easier to make up. You don't have to place the pad stitches in the chest as closely and meticulously so as to emphasise the proper form of the coat, meaning it is quicker to make up. Soft canvas is usually cheaper because it contains less horsehair. A drape coat needs less intensive ironwork to shape and fit. It's all a great boon for the tailor to be able to churn these things out quicker and with less skill. However, you'd be justified to demand your money back should a tailor serve you up such slop.

Originally Posted by Sator

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The fitted coat is the higher artform.
I'm suddenly reminded of Plato's Republic. Next he'll be on about drape corrupting the minds of the people.

Originally Posted by amplifiedheat

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I'm suddenly reminded of Plato's Republic. Next he'll be on about drape corrupting the minds of the people.

Woh, I'll have to keep that in mind. It's a great way to kill a discussion...