On debunking the myth of artisanry

[Sartorially Challenged]

Originally Posted by Dewey

Many Americans, for example, would wear an all-polyester "authentic" NFL football jersey before they would wear a vicuna sweater. For many Americans, too, there is no luxury more pure than a six-pack of swill, a Laz-Z-Boy recliner, and an HD broadcast of an NFL game on a 40 inch HDTV. Different pleasures satisfy different tastes.
Some might suggest that "luxury" is better than wearing a tracksuit, watching soccer on a 15-inch TV on a tiny flat with no central heating or AC.

I appreciate and enjoy the depth of knowledge about clothes (and a few other things) found on this site. But sometimes the self-anointed elitism is laid on a bit on the thick side.

My feeling on this debate is broadly similar to the following, taken from the site "Chronocentric":

So forget about evaluating such items by adding up the cost of components, factoring in the value of precious metals or imagining some supreme value hidden in the mechanism inside. That takes you on a slippery slope to the insanity of people who argue over technical specifications they don't truly understand, trying to intellectually justify wristwatch values for technical and logical reasons that hold little, if any, tangible merit or benefit.

...are all values that exist only to bring personal and intellectual satisfaction and enjoyment. In other words, jewelry value.

The truth is that the value of jewelry is entirely emotional. Any penny spent over $200 on the price of a watch is buying you only more jewelry value and greater emotional satisfaction in having something more unique--nothing more.

It is about wristwatches, but I think the sentiment applies to other "luxury" items.

 

[caelte]

Here is the most basic idea about a luxury item. It's designed and made without cost being a consideration.

Manufactured goods are the opposite.

Manufactured goods can be made with a design and quality that is very, very, high but the design is worked out within the parameters of a particular manufacturing process.

Luxury goods are usually one of a kind or made in small quantities by hand .
High quality manufactured goods are open ended.

Whether or not someone takes a perverse pleasure in having something that others can't have doesn't enter into the equation of what makes something luxurious. Nor does the concept of "relative" luxury.

 

[Sartorially Challenged]

Is there anything that is produced "without cost being a consideration"? Something that transcends economics?

 

[caelte]

Originally Posted by Sartorially Challenged

Is there anything that is produced "without cost being a consideration"? Something that transcends economics?
Not exactly sure what you are asking. There is an end to cost at some point on everything. Something is finished and the bill comes. The bill is not a consideration, all that is desired is the result.

 

[Sartorially Challenged]

My question was entirely rhetorical.

 

[epa]

Originally Posted by Sator

And the newbies should drink up but be warned of a slightly bitter after-taste. They sign up with names like Gucciboot, or Versacesuit. Several thousands posts later, long after they have been stripped of all previously held delusions about such labels, they beg J to change their increasingly embarrassing user name to "boot" or "suit"

Next perhaps someone with a user name like LabelCaesar will change to "Caesar"

I am so happy that I did not choose the name "Brionikiton" when I first signed up; after hearing that Brioni will be bought up (?) and that USD 4500 Kiton sportcoats include machine made seams (

), I might have ended up without anything left of my name...

 

[Artisan Fan]

I think "artisan" can have meaning if an item is well made by a craftsman that has honed his craft over many years and produces an uncommonly good item. This is one reason I chose my user name...I appreciate well made clothes. My original logo was of Jason Amesbury working on a last. The years that a shoemaker spends learning his craft has meaning and value to me and I want to support it.

The benefit of SF is to share knowledge about how things are made and perhaps give clues as to who has better construction methods. It can be difficult to determine definitively precisely how well made something is among competing quality brands but you can narrow it down to a small list.

Then there is value. I think those of us without unlimited wardrobe funds want to optimize the dollar spent and get the items of quality that offer more value per dollar. I think that luxury items can also be included in this. I tend to think of luxury items as well made rather than insanely priced, although sometimes it is both.

It is common to see many brands valued highly, often incorrectly, due to the status of their name. I think this community is great in part because we don't rely on status brands but look to true build quality.

But at the end of the day, one person may find a $215 tie reasonable while another may not. Members have different appreciation for different luxuries.

 

[lee_44106]

Originally Posted by Sator

Exactly. There is also an element of ethical buying involved with genuine artisanal goods. These are people who are passionate about what they do. You can see them at work if you walk into their workshop. They have nothing to hide - no children at work, no sweatshops, no cutting corners. You pay more for the privilege but I do so knowing that:

1. My money is going to real craftsmen and their families - not just shareholders. I try my best to pay artisans as much as I can in cash so the bloody bank doesn't get first bite of the cherry.
2. I am funding the continuation of old artisanal skills which are constantly in threat of extinction
3. I am going to get something of such high quality it will run rings around the mass market "faux luxury" rubbish - something which I will get years and years out of.

Workers in the sweatshops of China, India or any nation will never produce anything near this sort of quality. They hate their work, and it's mind numbing repetitive simplicity. Nor are they even given the opportunity to spend years studying and developing their craft. As long as such oppressive conditions prevail, the likelihood of a flowering of genuine artisanship remains remote.

This is the very definition of a clothing snob, fits right into the thread about such.

As far as whether the Far Eastern countries will ever have the capability to produce the kind of products that in your mind represent the best quality, may I refer you to the history of the Japanese car manufacturers in the 1970's, and how their car were perceived, quite erroneously, by those "in the know" to never being able to compete quality-wise with the GM's/Fords...etc.

 

[epa]

Originally Posted by lee_44106

This is the very definition of a clothing snob, fits right into the thread about such.

As far as whether the Far Eastern countries will ever have the capability to produce the kind of products that in your mind represent the best quality, may I refer you to the history of the Japanese car manufacturers in the 1970's, and how their car were perceived, quite erroneously, by those "in the know" to never being able to compete quality-wise with the GM's/Fords...etc.

Interesting: when reading this thread I also immediately thought of the Japanese car example!

 

[caelte]

Originally Posted by lee_44106

This is the very definition of a clothing snob, fits right into the thread about such. As far as whether the Far Eastern countries will ever have the capability to produce the kind of products that in your mind represent the best quality, may I refer you to the history of the Japanese car manufacturers in the 1970's, and how their car were perceived, quite erroneously, by those "in the know" to never being able to compete quality-wise with the GM's/Fords...etc.
Anybody who knows anything of China knows they have produced the highest quality luxury goods for a very, very long time. You can't get a handle on any of this by applying gross generalties based on stereotypes.

 

[lee_44106]

Amen.


Market forces (i.e., beer-gut Joe American who wants cheap toys, who doesn't want to spent $50 for a Swiss cotton undershirt...etc) dictate the type and quality of the Asian made good.

 

[okdc]

I think the problem that comes out of China is both suppliers, or people at the top wanting the best possible profit margin (remember these are now businesses, not artisan houses anymore) so corners are cut. Additionally, those actually producing the product are not trained to be as skillful as the old artisans. They are meant to work quickly and efficiently.

Anyway, anyone, in any country, can be trained to an artisan level. There are some historic reasons for the development of artisans. For example, less technology (if something is made by hand, the crafter will see it as more of an art), local craftsman had to keep a certain amount of high quality or word would get around town and they would go out of business, no marketing campaigns on TV, movies, or magazines, and in Europe, the guilds controlled quality. The internet, and these forums specifically, are serving the purpose of getting the word out about poor quality and consequently we are seeing the beginnings of a return to high quality construction and away from simple mass marketing and imageing.

 

[caelte]

Originally Posted by okdc

I think the problem that comes out of China is both suppliers, or people at the top wanting the best possible profit margin (remember these are now businesses, not artisan houses anymore) so corners are cut. Additionally, those actually producing the product are not trained to be as skillful as the old artisans. They are meant to work quickly and efficiently. Anyway, anyone, in any country, can be trained to an artisan level. There are some historic reasons for the development of artisans. For example, less technology (if something is made by hand, the crafter will see it as more of an art), local craftsman had to keep a certain amount of high quality or word would get around town and they would go out of business, no marketing campaigns on TV, movies, or magazines, and in Europe, the guilds controlled quality. The internet, and these forums specifically, are serving the purpose of getting the word out about poor quality and consequently we are seeing the beginnings of a return to high quality construction and away from simple mass marketing and imageing.
Maybe what is at the base of all this misconception concerning quality is a screwed up view of the past. Junk has always been the most common commodity. There has always been quality. Quality survives, junk doesn't, so it looks as though the past had nothing but quality. It didn't. There is better quality now than ever. Again, that is why the big luxury houses can sell manufactured goods as luxury items. CAD programs have changed the manufacturing business in a fundamental way. Have you ever seen the video on the milling of the Bugatti Veyron engine block?

 

[Britalian]

Originally Posted by caelte

Have you ever seen the video on the milling of the Bugatti Veyron engine block?

No. Is there a link?

 

[caelte]

Originally Posted by Britalian

No. Is there a link?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU32Q...orn-video.html