Inception

[holymadness]

Originally Posted by laughwithm3

the movie is decent, there's one part i didn't understand, maybe someone could enlighten me.

**spoiler**

when they were in the snow scene(dream level 3), how did Leo and Page went in to limbo by just entering another dream state. i assume Leo is the dreamer for the next level, so Leo's dream world = limbo? i thought the only way to enter limbo is to die in a dream while being too sedated to wake up in reality. If they simply went into Leo's dream world, why would Fischer be there?
Spoilars:

I noticed this plot hole as well. It would seem logical that they'd have to kill themselves in level 3 in order to follow Fischer to limbo. The other possibility is that there are only 4 levels of dreaming, hence if you go down once more using the dream machine, you are by default in limbo, the lowest possible level. It's not a very satisfying explanation, though, as there's no reason within the rules established by the film why this would be so.

Originally Posted by WSW

Interesting points Holymadness, I'd be equally interested in reading your interpretation as well. I agree with you that the Adam White explanation is very unsatisfying, making the movie seem quite pointless and dull and that it doesn't work logically as it involves making up facts that have not been referenced at all in the film.
I don't have an overarching theory of the movie. I tend to be suspicious of such explanations, which either distort and render meaningless the material in order to explain away all difficulties (Adam White), or else defy credulity by trying to interpret every element as a literal symbol for a dubious allegory (e.g. Inception is a movie about making movies, the various characters in the film represent the various cast members on a set, etc.). I also find it amusing that so much ink has been spilled to brand it as merely a mediocre video game adaptation by a constipated logician; I don't seem to recall G.I. Joe generating that much vitriol. Bad movies are merely dismissed. Interesting movies that are both liked and disliked are debated endlessly.

Moar Spoilars:

Anyway, all that to say that I find certain elements of the story interesting from a philosophical point of view, but that I don't think there is an interpretive key to be discovered. I particularly like the idea of the totem and I think Nolan considers it significant because a) it's introduced even before its purpose is explained to us and b) the movie ends with a shot of one.

A totem is an object whose physical properties are known only to the person who created it. It is created in the 'real world' to help distinguish between the real and the dream worlds, presumably because it has different properties in the dream world. This makes sense if you consider that, in someone else's dream, the architecture is under their control. Thus, someone unfamiliar with your totem will be unable to replicate it exactly, which would give away the fact that you're in a dream if you tried to manipulate the totem (which is more or less what happened in the opening scene with Saito's carpet). Hence why JGL tells Ariadne that she can't touch his loaded die.

On the other hand, what if you are in a dream of your own creation, as Cobb frequently is? Since Cobb is creating his own dream world out of his imagination, or else from his memories, it stands to reason that he would be able to perfectly replicate his totem, rendering it sort of useless. As best I can understand, he imposes special rules on the totem when he enters a dream state; in his dreams, the top will spin forever, whereas this is impossible in the real world.

But here's the rub: Cobb himself is imposing the rules which tell him whether his existence is objectively real or not. That is a paradox, since the conditions of objectivity have been decided by a subjective entity. The test therefore reduces to the absurd proposition of "If this world is real, then this world is real. If this world is fake, then this world is fake." We can see how he wants the top to act like an artificial god, telling him whether or not the world is real, but there is nothing beyond Cobb's own interpretation of the rules that renders an objective verdict on the state of reality.

Since the behaviour of the top depends on what Cobb already believes, it merely reflects his particular state of mind. There is no reason why the top couldn't topple in a dream state if Cobb is convinced that he's actually awake. (On the other hand, Cobb could never make the top spin forever in the real world, so while he can convince himself that he's not dreaming when he is, he can never convince himself that he is dreaming when he really isn't).

I suppose that's why the last shot is interesting. If Cobb is convinced that he's in the real world, the top will fall regardless of whether he's dreaming or not. The point is that he doesn't really care. He turns his back on the top before knowing the outcome, thus ultimately deciding the top's behaviour if he is still dreaming. He's made a Kierkegaardian leap of faith, like Abraham sacrificing Isaac. He has chosen to live in a world where his wife is dead and he's able to come back to the US to be with his children. Whether this world is objectively real is less important than whether Cobb believes it to be.

 

[aizan]

i wouldn't spend too much time trying to "figure out" this movie. it won't get you anywhere!

however, my favorite part of the movie was cobb's letting go of mal, which is straight out of tarkovsky's solaris. now that's a movie that will leave you thinking.

 

[ChicagoRon]

Originally Posted by holymadness

Spoilars: I noticed this plot hole as well. It would seem logical that they'd have to kill themselves in level 3 in order to follow Fischer to limbo. The other possibility is that there are only 4 levels of dreaming, hence if you go down once more using the dream machine, you are by default in limbo, the lowest possible level. It's not a very satisfying explanation, though, as there's no reason within the rules established by the film why this would be so.
I thought it was a great movie (but I loved the Matrix). Regarding the plot hole you mention holy - Spoilers: Theyactually do establish the fact that level four is just limbo when he explains what happened Mal. He said he "convinced her to go there" meaning they were experimenting with how many levels they could go to and they hit the limit and got stuck... at least that's how I read it. Of course, I think the end, and the comment about all the people chasing him around being his guilt, seem to imply that the whole thing was his dream from the get-go.

 

[Brian SD]

Saw the movie and really enjoyed it. I consider Christopher Nolan's movies to simply be action movies with a layer of depth to give your brain something to chew on alongside all the visual splendor, and as expected, the movie didn't disappoint.

It wasn't anything brilliant, and I agree with the criticism that Nolan didn't really do much in the way of exploring dreams, but the concept of inception and the nature of how we brood on ideas and expand a simple concept into a life-controlling fixation was pretty on point, I thought.

Great movie. Not amazing, but certainly well above-average.

 

[Wilde]

As Fellini's 8/12, Inception is a film about making movies and it is perfection.

 

[furo]

I saw it a second time last night and it helped explain some things I missed but I still had a couple of questions:

Spoilers: 1. As mentioned above, how do we know that level 4 is limbo or not? My perspective is that Fischer is actually dead in level 3, thus in limbo, thus requiring someone to a) either convince him he's dreaming while in limbo to kill himself, or b) get killed ... which Ariadne does for him. This allows Fischer to come "out of limbo," which enables the AED device to work and bring him back to life, whereas, if they had tried the AED right when he got shot, it might have revived him, but he'd still be in limbo ... does that make sense? Or is level 4 just a dream level

2. We know that level 4 is Cobb's limbo, yet at the end, when Cobb finds Seito by washing ashore, is he still in his own version of his created world, or is he in Seito's limbo world? Was Cobb the first man ever to create limbo world, thus all others forever after that enter it are in Cobb's limbo?? And how do we know how long it took Cobb to find Seito? Did he know exactly where Seito would be in his own limbo world? Isn't it feasible that Cobb could have taken a lifetime to find Seito, thus by the time he did, Seito could be dead?

3. Along the same line with Seito, how did Cobb know Seito'd still be alive in limbo, period? Was that just a leap of faith? Seito was clearly on the verge of being old to the point of death, where, now this gets interesting, he'd come back to reality ANYWAYS, since dying of old age would still pop him out of limbo... so is it just an amazing coincidence that Cobb gets to him prior to his own natural death in limbo?

4. When Cobb is explaining the past to Mal, he says that "we did grow old together, you just don't remember..." My question is ... why doesn't she remember? Is her mind too old in the limbo world? And why are they having flashbacks to limbo world where sometimes she's young on the train tracks and the 2 second flashback of them being old on the traintracks (if you saw closely they were interlocking their old-ass hands on the traintrack right before the train comes). That all kind of confused me.

5. Did Cobb perform extraction and inception on Mal in the same level? He said he needed to unlock her safe, which he did, to find the top spinning ... which to me represented the idea that she was in a dream, and she locked that away as a form of permanent delusion ... until Cobb found that top, and then decided to plant the inception in her that ultimately led to her real-world death.

6. Did Cobb kill himself in his own limbo world when Mal got shot by Ariadne, so that Cobb could ride the kicks up to level 1 and drown again to go back into limbo? They didn't show Cobb coming out of level 3 or 2 so I'm not sure exactly what happened there

 

[ChicagoRon]

Spoilers: Furo, I think #1 can be answered by two things... First, the reason things move faster in subsequent levels is that your brain activity is more efficient. There must be some limit to how much brain you have to use and how fast it can work... so n^4 seems to be that limit. Second, the reason that level is Limbo and is so dangerous is because it is the only level where you can dream long enough to age yourself.... so, the next level down you would still die at the same point (when you get too old). Of course, you ask later about the "we grew old together" part, which was interesting, because even in his version of their suicide to escape limbo, they were young. I think that is a valuable clue to the answer to the rest of your questions. I am still pretty sure the whole thing was his dream, and perhaps still his Limbo. As in, all the other people and situations were his projections from the first second of the movie to the last.i

 

[furo]

Originally Posted by ChicagoRon

Spoilers:

Furo, I think #1 can be answered by two things...

First, the reason things move faster in subsequent levels is that your brain activity is more efficient. There must be some limit to how much brain you have to use and how fast it can work... so n^4 seems to be that limit.


Second, the reason that level is Limbo and is so dangerous is because it is the only level where you can dream long enough to age yourself.... so, the next level down you would still die at the same point (when you get too old).


Of course, you ask later about the "we grew old together" part, which was interesting, because even in his version of their suicide to escape limbo, they were young. I think that is a valuable clue to the answer to the rest of your questions. I am still pretty sure the whole thing was his dream, and perhaps still his Limbo. As in, all the other people and situations were his projections from the first second of the movie to the last.i

So that means your subscribing to the theory linked above where he wakes up for the first time on the plane?

I don't think that theory is valid only because the movie slips into absurdity that devalues most of the cool things that happened...

I've seen that technique in other movies (Devil's Advocate for example) and I don't think Nolan wanted such a predictable answer for everything.

 

[laughwithm3]

Originally Posted by furo

I saw it a second time last night and it helped explain some things I missed but I still had a couple of questions:

my 2 cents

Spoilers: 1. As mentioned above, how do we know that level 4 is limbo or not? My perspective is that Fischer is actually dead in level 3, thus in limbo, thus requiring someone to a) either convince him he's dreaming while in limbo to kill himself, or b) get killed ... which Ariadne does for him. This allows Fischer to come "out of limbo," which enables the AED device to work and bring him back to life, whereas, if they had tried the AED right when he got shot, it might have revived him, but he'd still be in limbo ... does that make sense? Or is level 4 just a dream level

I don't think 4th level is limbo, because the rule is that you have to die first in order to enter it. Cobb and Ariadne never died in level 3. So it has to be a dream world, Cobb's dream world's surface level is a beach as previously seen when Adiadne enter his dream world, maybe that's why they were on the shore when they first enter it. Why fischer was there is beyond me. Ariadne didn't kill Fischer in level 4, she pushed him down the building to create a drop and kick Fischer back to the previous level. If she killed him, he would wake up in reality while others are still dreaming, and the whole operation fails.

2. We know that level 4 is Cobb's limbo, yet at the end, when Cobb finds Seito by washing ashore, is he still in his own version of his created world, or is he in Seito's limbo world? Was Cobb the first man ever to create limbo world, thus all others forever after that enter it are in Cobb's limbo?? And how do we know how long it took Cobb to find Seito? Did he know exactly where Seito would be in his own limbo world? Isn't it feasible that Cobb could have taken a lifetime to find Seito, thus by the time he did, Seito could be dead?

Limbo is a shared dream world by all the people that linked dream state in level 0(reality supposedly), if anyone in the group has been there before, that particular person's previous projections remain in there. Cobb probably wasn't the first man ever to create limbo world, but he's the only one who has been there out of the group. It didn't take Cobb long to find Seito, because he was taken to Seito by Seito's projection guards. However, the time between Seito's death and Cobb's death(drowned) in Level 1 translates to multiple decades in the Limbo, that's why when Cobb found Seito in limbo, even though the search didn't take much effort, Seito was already an old man anyway.


3. Along the same line with Seito, how did Cobb know Seito'd still be alive in limbo, period? Was that just a leap of faith? Seito was clearly on the verge of being old to the point of death, where, now this gets interesting, he'd come back to reality ANYWAYS, since dying of old age would still pop him out of limbo... so is it just an amazing coincidence that Cobb gets to him prior to his own natural death in limbo?

He doesn't know, he has to try, because if he doesn't go into limbo and tells Seito about honoring the agreement, by the time Seito wakes up from dying naturally in the limbo, Seito's mind would be completely fried and not remember a thing.

4. When Cobb is explaining the past to Mal, he says that "we did grow old together, you just don't remember..." My question is ... why doesn't she remember? Is her mind too old in the limbo world? And why are they having flashbacks to limbo world where sometimes she's young on the train tracks and the 2 second flashback of them being old on the traintracks (if you saw closely they were interlocking their old-ass hands on the traintrack right before the train comes). That all kind of confused me.

Mal doesn't exist anymore, she's a projection created from memory. It was Cobb that choose to only kept her image at a young age in his dreams and memories. "she" didn't remember them growing old was because Cobb choose to kept the being old part out of his memories. In the end, he reminded himself that they did grew old together in order to convince himself not to stay with her in the limbo.

5. Did Cobb perform extraction and inception on Mal in the same level? He said he needed to unlock her safe, which he did, to find the top spinning ... which to me represented the idea that she was in a dream, and she locked that away as a form of permanent delusion ... until Cobb found that top, and then decided to plant the inception in her that ultimately led to her real-world death.

I believe it's just inception, because Cobb already know Mal's secret, he just needed to find it and tweak it. My interpretation is that Mal didn't want to leave limbo, so she set the top in permanent reality mode and locked that away. Cobb knows about the totem to begin with, he didn't extract information from Mal about how to find the safe, he just looked all over the place. therefore, he didn't perform extraction on Mal.

6. Did Cobb kill himself in his own limbo world when Mal got shot by Ariadne, so that Cobb could ride the kicks up to level 1 and drown again to go back into limbo? They didn't show Cobb coming out of level 3 or 2 so I'm not sure exactly what happened there

Dying in any dream levels without the ability to wake up in Level 0 takes one to the limbo. Dying in the limbo takes one pass all the levels and wake you up in Level 0. Cobb never actually died until he was drowned in Level 1, that's what sent him to the real limbo. I have no idea what the 4th level was, that's why i can not answer your question #1.

 

[ChicagoRon]

Originally Posted by furo

So that means your subscribing to the theory linked above where he wakes up for the first time on the plane? I don't think that theory is valid only because the movie slips into absurdity that devalues most of the cool things that happened... I've seen that technique in other movies (Devil's Advocate for example) and I don't think Nolan wanted such a predictable answer for everything.
No.. my theory is that he has been in limbo the entire movie, and even waking up on the plane, he is still in a dream. That's why his kids have never aged. That would also allow him to make up all the rules as he goes along (like the totems and the fact that at some levels you can die and others you can't).

 

[Blackfyre]

thread title should be changed to "Inception, now with more white script"

 

[Brian SD]

Originally Posted by ChicagoRon

No.. my theory is that he has been in limbo the entire movie, and even waking up on the plane, he is still in a dream. That's why his kids have never aged. That would also allow him to make up all the rules as he goes along (like the totems and the fact that at some levels you can die and others you can't).

His kids did age. You just didn't notice it. They used older actors for the children at the end, and their clothes were different as well (thus it wasn't just a single memory being repeated over and over, every time the image is conjured).

I don't really think the discussion on what actually happened in the story is interesting, however. I have my interpretation, which is what I understood after watching it the first time, and despite having read several other interpretations of the main narrative, nothing seems to be any more convincing than that original impression.

What's much cooler to me is the what's been mentioned a few times in this thread - the metaphor between dreams and film-making. This is what is more interesting the more I think about it.

Also, can you guys please spell Saito's name correctly? Seito would be pronounced "say - toe." BTW, Sai means "purification." "Tou" is a very common Kanji, meaning wisteria, found in several Japanese names such as the most prevalent Japanese family name, Sato. Tou has no real significance here, but Saitou, which is a pretty rare family name in Japan, was obviously selected to fit the character's role in the main narrative - to purify Cobb's name.

 

[WorkingClassDude]

Seems like everyone is doing this spoiler style so I guess I will.

_I like to think he woke up. There's an earlier scene where he spins the top and picks up a gun. Then I think it toppled saying it wasn't a dream. Hence I think the end is the same idea. At the very least I think there's more stuff suggesting he woke up than stuff suggesting he isn't. When he woke up on the plane there's too much detail like Saito making his phone call, seeing everyone in the airport. Seems like if it were a dream it would have been a bit more clear._

 

[Brian SD]

-From where he wakes up in the plane is the part where whether it's a dream or reality becomes inconsequential. He has reached his goal, and his character is redeemed by the fact that he no longer cares whether it's reality or not.-

 

[furo]

Originally Posted by laughwithm3

my 2 cents


Dying in any dream levels without the ability to wake up in Level 0 takes one to the limbo. Dying in the limbo takes one pass all the levels and wake you up in Level 0. Cobb never actually died until he was drowned in Level 1, that's what sent him to the real limbo. I have no idea what the 4th level was, that's why i can not answer your question #1.

Thanks, so it looks like the only mystery is what were they all in during level 4. It makes sense to say it is just a dream level and not limbo, since Cobb and Ariadne drop a dream level to get there, rather than commit suicide in Lvl 3 (which would be the true way to drop into limbo). If we look at it this way, Fischer's gunshot just knocked him into a coma of sorts, and just needed a "kick" to come back to lvl 3 so he could realize his inception. What makes the whole notion a bit difficult is that no architect designed lvl 4, so the default for everyone was Cobb's previous construct (although this construct is similar in scenery to limbo, it's not limbo in this instance).

I'd still like to know what "kicked" Cobb from lvl 4 back up to ride the kicks to level 1, so that he could drown and drop to limbo. Ariadne and Fischer jumped off the building, so there is a synchronicity paradox: Cobb stayed in lvl 4, essentially missing the kick that Ariadne and Fischer rode up... So how does Cobb get back to lvl 1 where he drowns??