Groupthink or Connoisseurs' Consensus?

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

If being less than inclined towards the drape style or the Anderson and Sheppard style is FNB groupthink at least the concern are the quality, the price tag and the effect the suit's look/cut will have on people in the real world rather than the general forum groupthink about whether your choices are considered brave and the stuff of bravissimo on the clothing MBs.

Have you met Cruizer? You have a lot of common ground in your sartorial philosphy. That's exactly what he says, although more crisply.

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

Personally, i realize that Anderson and Sheppard make a suit and that it is preferable to wear one of their suits to wearing say a track suit but within the world of suits, to a conoisseur, the Drape look is fussy, affected and dated;

Fussy...affected...dated...oh my...the irony...

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

which works in some professions but not the traditional ones). I personally prefer simple, honest and current. Maybe that's just me. I dont want to sachet sideways in my superior drape style and have people marvel at what a gentleman I am or how elegant I am due to the grandiosity of the cut of my suit.

Since you view clothes as a form of social communication, if you neither want to be perceived as a gentleman nor elegant, what are you shooting for?

Joe Sixpack?

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

Again, a main ingedient of groupthink has to be that because I get it, you should get it. Personally, I let people express themselves and I deter them from copying me or things i like.

You have come full circle to self-contradiction, I'm afraid. If your sartorial ethos were really of acceptance and enjoyment of not only your self-expression but that of others, I do not see why you would be so truculent on the subject of a style that many men of means and taste find satisfying and wonderful.

- B

 

[Manton]

FNB, the only concrete, understandable thing you could say about my suit was that the sleeve hang is sloppy -- a claim which, as everyone can see, is false. Other than that, you can ***** about the quality, but you can't tell that from a pic. No one can.

Are you aware that to call drape "slovenly" in one breath and "fussy" in the next is contradictory?

To say nothing of this rather glaring contradiction:

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

Personally, i realize that Anderson and Sheppard make a suit and that it is preferable to wear one of their suits to wearing say a track suit but within the world of suits, to a conoisseur, the Drape look is fussy, affected and dated; which works in some professions but not the traditional ones). I personally prefer simple, honest and current. Maybe that's just me. I dont want to sachet sideways in my superior drape style and have people marvel at what a gentleman I am or how elegant I am due to the grandiosity of the cut of my suit.

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

It's not that the A&S make and the drape style are sloppy and out of date but that one can choose the look for themselves without having to enlist everyone else to go get it; as if it's the best thing to do. Wear, the look, enjoy it but please just because you personally like it, dont put some poor, new entrant who has to look normal to his clients into the "drape" look because it's "superiority."

You can just say clearly what you really mean. You hate me. And that hate is very important to you. It has guided your whole life going on four years. Just say it. No need to do all these sommersaults.

But it doesn't really matter, I guess, because everyone figured it out a long time ago.

 

[Film Noir Buff]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

Have you met Cruizer? You have a lot of common ground in your sartorial philosphy. That's exactly what he says, although more crisply.
From what I gathered on the button stance post over at AAAC, Monsieur Cruiser claimed most would not notice the difference between given suit styles. I maintain that people do notice, even if they dont know why, and that the drape suit is going to raise eyebrows and perhaps for the wrong reasons. However, if you understand the reactions the drape suit garners and you want that effect, then go ahead. I dont think everyone else needs to be converted; "groupthink", which is what i thought I was discussing.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

Fussy...affected...dated...oh my...the irony...
I am afraid i dont see this but nevertheless I dont suggest anyone should wear the suit cut that I wear.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

Since you view clothes as a form of social communication, if you neither want to be perceived as a gentleman nor elegant, what are you shooting for?
I suppose it's a matter of degree and how these messages are expressed. As a cut, I think the drape suit is no longer subtle. Further, i believe it gets in the way of one's personality and it is not practical for the times we live in.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

Joe Sixpack?
Hahaha...No

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

You have come full circle to self-contradiction, I'm afraid. If your sartorial ethos were really of acceptance and enjoyment of not only your self-expression but that of others, I do not see why you would be so truculent on the subject of a style that many men of means and taste find satisfying and wonderful. - B
But i do appreciate it on someone who really wants it. I dont think someone enjoying it should have to enlist everyone else to also enjoy it. Somehow, and we are speaking about groupthink, I get the impression that some need to believe if it's good for them, it has to be good for everyone. I can see that some things that are good for me are wrong for others. I also combine that with actively not wanting people to wear what i wear and to decide for themselves what they want.

 

[Manton]

FNB, this whole meme "Manton wants to impose his taste on everyone" has been the guiding force of your obsessive hatred of me, and the guiding inspiration (or one of them) of your entire forum.

But it is false. You can't point to anything I have ever said that demonstrates the claim. I can point to hundreds of posts I have made that say the opposite, and hundreds more in which I say that I can see why certain people like what they like even if I would never wear it.

Why do you feel so threatened by my taste, or by my posts in which I explain my taste? Why do you interpret every one of them as an attempt by me to force you to wear something you don't want to wear? Why must you repeat this straw man over and over and over?

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

From what I gathered on the button stance post over at AAAC, Monsieur Cruiser claimed most would not notice the difference between given suit styles. I maintain that people do notice, even if they dont know why, and that the drape suit is going to raise eyebrows and perhaps for the wrong reasons.

I might have read that thread incorrectly, but I believe one of his neolithic points was that a hard 3 roll 2 would be considered by most "normal" men to be an element of bad/unusual tailoring because of the "extraneous" buttonhole, and should be avoided for that reason despite its assocation with American collegiate style, A&S, and the southern Italian tailors. In other words, he was not arguing style but it's effect on others, which is often your point, particularly for the junior man.

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

However, if you understand the reactions the drape suit garners and you want that effect, then go ahead. I dont think everyone else needs to be converted; "groupthink", which is what i thought I was discussing.

Honestly, I have not read any attempts at conversion...there is a lot of sharing and discussion of the soft tailored style which I attribute not to A&S, but to the interesting issue of comparing the expensive RTW Neapolitan brands (which are owned widely by men who read and post at least here) to their bespoke Neapolitan antecedants, particularly the comparisons to Rubinacci. If there is conversion, it is only by example and by the piqueing of some invidivuals own tastes and wants. That is an entirely natural occurence without sinister overtones.

When men who wear soft, draped jackets explain why they like it, it is not the same as promoting it as a desirable normative sartorial solution.

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

I am afraid i dont see this but nevertheless I dont suggest anyone should wear the suit cut that I wear.

I suspect that you do not need to fear a long line of emulators.

By the same token, neither do I.

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

I suppose it's a matter of degree and how these messages are expressed. As a cut, I think the drape suit is no longer subtle. Further, i believe it gets in the way of one's personality and it is not practical for the times we live in.

That is an entirely reasonable point to make, and one of the topics of discursive merit.

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

But i do appreciate it on someone who really wants it. I dont think someone enjoying it should have to enlist everyone else to also enjoy it. Somehow, and we are speaking about groupthink, I get the impression that some need to believe if it's good for them, it has to be good for everyone. I can see that some things that are good for me are wrong for others. I also combine that with actively not wanting people to wear what i wear and to decide for themselves what they want.

It seems like you are saying that "groupthink" involves both promotion and thoughtless emulation. I see neither, only emulation from time to time that derives from enthusiasm.

Such is fashion and always has been.


- B

 

[gnatty8]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

Have you met Cruizer? You have a lot of common ground in your sartorial philosphy. That's exactly what he says, although more crisply.

Uh oh, you've just given me an idea for the Annoying Buzzwords you Hate thread..

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by gnatty8

Uh oh, you've just given me an idea for the Annoying Buzzwords you Hate thread..

Would you put "groupthink" on that list?

- B

 

[Manton]

I am curious as to what is "unsubtle" about this:

That is, unsubtle about the cut. Not merely the fact that it is DB, because we know that FNB likes DB a lot. Or does he like them because they are unsubtle? That would seem to fit his taste, but it would also gut the point he is trying to make.

I would also like to ask whether he thinks this is subtle, either simply or in comparison to the suit above:

Finally, I am curious to know what about the cut of the DB suit is "impractical."

 

[Film Noir Buff]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

I might have read that thread incorrectly, but I believe one of his neolithic points was that a hard 3 roll 2 would be considered by most "normal" men to be an element of bad/unusual tailoring because of the "extraneous" buttonhole, and should be avoided for that reason despite its assocation with American collegiate style, A&S, and the southern Italian tailors. In other words, he was not arguing style but it's effect on others, which is often your point, particularly for the junior man.
There are at least two different ideas at play here. the first is Anderson and Sheppard quality, the second is the Drape look. Now whether or not Anderson has the best darned sewing quality you ever saw, the way the suits are cut are faulty and for the looser style they make, the result is a sloppier fit. Do other firms have quality issues? Yes. But Anderson seems to have a status that few other firms do. I dont think this is something I am creating, or something that Anderson doesnt know themselves. They may not use the same language but they wont deny that they cut the suit first and then make alterations to a clients body rather than cut for a clients body from the beginning. A lot of other Savile Row firms that do the actual English cut, modify it for Americans. Why? Because they know Americans will look ridiculous over here in pinched waists and chests. What looks good in London doesnt always translate here. Additionally, one must keep what I am saying within context. The Drape look itself was never popular, not even in its "Hey day". Like caviar will never be popular? Perhaps but the silhouette suffers from practical and design defects that will kake miserable the average man who works in an office and isnt overly concerned with clothes but wants to look smart. This man could be making millions or billions or nothing. I read very few of Cruiser's posts. If you want to make this personal and claim that Im like Cruiser, then I simply dont know what to say; except that I have more experience (If not expertise) and interest in clothes than Monsieur Cruiser seems to. I also write a lot about the good stuff which might shock Monsieur Cruiser humble sensibilities. I can only ask, "How can Cruiser cast out Cruiser?" I do take into account people's reactions to clothes but it isnt the reaction of Joe Six Pack Im interested in; I thought I mentioned that? I am only commenting on the suits and the reasons I like or dont like them; i dont believe i am making personal attacks. Further, I am commenting on what I see as people wanting other people to emulate their style as a form of validation. Some of these opinions have to do with A&S, some to do with the drape cut, some with people encouraging groupthink (even if unwittingly) and some with my belief that one should see an item of clothes for the limited purpose it has. Some of them are connected but they are not all conveniently so.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

Honestly, I have not read any attempts at conversion...there is a lot of sharing and discussion of the soft tailored style which I attribute not to A&S, but to the interesting issue of comparing the expensive RTW Neapolitan brands (which are owned widely by men who read and post at least here) to their bespoke Neapolitan antecedants, particularly the comparisons to Rubinacci. If there is conversion, it is only by example and by the piqueing of some invidivuals own tastes and wants. That is an entirely natural occurence without sinister overtones.
Im not suggesting a conspiracy (well, not this time

) only that one needs to make sure their enthusiasm doesnt need recruits to validate a choice.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

When men who wear soft, draped jackets explain why they like it, it is not the same as promoting it as a desirable normative sartorial solution.
And I would imagine when men who do not like soft, draped jackets explain why they do not it should not be meant to dissuade people from wearing it.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

I suspect that you do not need to fear a long line of emulators. By the same token, neither do I.
I wouldnt have it any other way.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

That is an entirely reasonable point to make, and one of the topics of discursive merit.
Thank you

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

It seems like you are saying that "groupthink" involves both promotion and thoughtless emulation. I see neither, only emulation from time to time that derives from enthusiasm. Such is fashion and always has been. - B
I do see those as elements of groupthink although i dont necessarily see those elements as a problem in and of themselves. And if by fashion, you mean what's current, then I agree.

 

[gnatty8]

Originally Posted by Manton

I am curious as to what is "unsubtle" about this:

That tie knot it a tad unsubtle..

 

[Manton]

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

I dont think this is something I am creating, or something that Anderson doesnt know themselves. They may not use the same language but they wont deny that they cut the suit first and then make alterations to a clients body rather than cut for a clients body from the beginning.

Yes, they will deny it. You are wrong. Again.

 

[designprofessor]

I learn a lot from this site. There is a good deal of historical information to back up the sartorial choices that get displayed here. There's a lot of knowledge about products, their designers and the traditions of those design decisions. Not sure if that's groupthink, just sharing information.

For example, when I walked into G&G's trunk show -those shoes spoke for themselves. Yes, I learned about them through SF. But it was the beauty of the shoes themselves, not potential applause from SF that made me drop the change.

 

[grimslade]

Originally Posted by emptym

Would you mind doing the same for me? Or should I go straight to the source?

Yes, I would. Matt has a useful illustration of it in DT somewhere I believe.

Originally Posted by Manton

Why do you feel so threatened by my taste, or by my posts in which I explain my taste? Why do you interpret every one of them as an attempt by me to force you to wear something you don't want to wear? Why must you repeat this straw man over and over and over?

He doesn't feel threatened by your taste. He feels threatened by his own perception that you have a following. This is why he attacks both your knowledge and your choices of clothing. It is also why he strenuously denies seeking or wanting a following himself--his sense (to emphasize; I am not saying that it is true or deserved) that you have some authority on matters on which he seeks authority is the really galling thing. I assume you actually understand this. I assume most people who are paying attention understand it too. But just in case, I thought I'd spell it out.

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

I maintain that people do notice, even if they dont know why, and that the drape suit is going to raise eyebrows and perhaps for the wrong reasons.

However, if you understand the reactions the drape suit garners and you want that effect, then go ahead. I dont think everyone else needs to be converted; "groupthink", which is what i thought I was discussing.

I suppose it's a matter of degree and how these messages are expressed. As a cut, I think the drape suit is no longer subtle. Further, i believe it gets in the way of one's personality and it is not practical for the times we live in.[/B]

QFI alongside this:

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

And I would imagine when men who do not like soft, draped jackets explain why they do not it should not be meant to dissuade people from wearing it.

 

[Manton]

FTR, drape and "loose" are two different things. They often go together, but not necessarily.

"Drape" is a very specific thing. It refers to some excess cloth in the chest that, owing to that excess and the lack of a hard canvas to smooth it out, "breaks" in the chest. It is highlighted in the red circles below:

How & exactly where the drape is distributed can vary. In the pic above, it is way out toward the scye. That is personally where I prefer it.

It can also be more in the chest:

Another hallmark is a slightly extended shoulderline, which you can see very clearly in this pic:

Without that, the drape would tend to gather and sort of balloon outward. Not what you are going for.

Looseness/fullness is another matter. The jacket above is quite lean everywhere but the chest, as is this one (sorry, I did not bother to out on a tie):

This one, on the other hand, is much more full overall:

That comes through especially when you compare to a leaner example of the same basic design:

It is incorrect to say that the fuller suit does not fit. There is not a ripple anywhere. It fits fine. It's just cut full. That's the style of that tailor. The look of it may not be to the taste of everyone; I can't deny that. But I can say that whatever the fullness takes away in style, it repays in comfort.

Personally, I find this too tight:

Only the wearer could tell us whether it is comfortable. Personally, I doubt I would be comfortable in it. But even if I were, it would feel self-conscious.

 

[Film Noir Buff]

Originally Posted by grimslade

He doesn't feel threatened by your taste. He feels threatened by his own perception that you have a following. This is why he attacks both your knowledge and your choices of clothing. It is also why he strenuously denies seeking or wanting a following himself--his sense (to emphasize; I am not saying that it is true or deserved) that you have some authority on matters on which he seeks authority is the really galling thing. I assume you actually understand this. I assume most people who are paying attention understand it too. But just in case, I thought I'd spell it out. QFI alongside this:
Although your tone is truly off base, my opinions on Drape and A&S predate my appearance on clothing MBs and have nothing to do with any one individual. And mine is not a complete damnation of the suit type, in fact they can look good on the occasional individual or in the time they represent.