conservative business dress WAYWRN: An Experiment

[fritzl]

Originally Posted by UrbanComposition

Moo's outfit, with the tie in the same color family with the suit, is not loud at all; it's pretty tame. And it's only at close glance that the different color overlaying checks can be seen.

More than anything else, it's pleasing to the eye.

Granted, it's not a worsted suit and silk tie, and there's no grey to be seen, but in today's conservative business dress, I would wager that's it's far less offensive than shiny clown vomit ties or overly matchy accessories.

+1

 

[rmanoj]

Manton, just a quick question about your own situation: do you absolutely have to wear conservative business dress to work? I just think it's a real shame because some of your most brilliant stuff was when you pushed the boat out a bit, such as that 3-piece with the DB waistcoat. It's also saddening to read that you're wearing braces and DBs less often. Surely your colleagues know that you've written a book on men's style and won't be that put off if you turn up in a solid charcoal 3-piece?

 

[Douglas]

Loving this thread, great to see you back Manton.

Unfortunately, I never get to poast in this thread, as I don't wear conservative business dress.

 

[Moss]

Originally Posted by deadly7

Pretty sure loafers aren't conservative business dress unless you work in an office where everyone walks in wearing basketball shorts.

Loafers go well with gray flannels and a button down, but perhaps the B in conservative business dress precludes them.

Conservative sport dress?

 

[Despos]

Originally Posted by UrbanComposition

Thank you. Moo's outfit, with the tie within the same color family the suit
That is what I don't like.

is not loud at all

is subjective

 

[Manton]

Fixed pic in first post. Imageshack seems to be denied to us forever, not a temporary glitch. RIP.

 

[J. Cogburn]

Originally Posted by Manton

I think you still do not understand the purpose of this thread. It's not a threat about absolute conservative business dress or conservative business dress on the Kelvin scale. Let's think of it more as conservative business dress relative to the current state of WAYWRN.
Gotcha. Objections then are withdrawn. "Conservative" is a relative term - conservative compared to what? For what it's worth, my "Kelvin scale" definition of conservative business dress would be: * Plain blue or grey worsted suits. Nailhead, pic & pic, herringbone, birdseye - all are OK. Stripes are OK. PoW patterns are OK. Windowpane is on the edge. Others probably don't cut it. * Solid, repp, foulard, dot, and Macclesfield ties are OK. Others probably aren't. Ties should be restricted to dark red, dark green, dark purple, mid-to-dark brown, all yellows and golds, all greys, and mid-blues and darker. Neon colored ties are out, as are most powdery pastel colors. * White, blue, and pink shirt grounds. Patterns are OK as long as they aren't too large. Anything short of a full spread collar is fine. Contrasting collars are also fine, as are French cuffs. * Only one patterned item; two patterns might be OK as long as both are quiet. * Two colors per rig are perfect - not including white. More will usually be too many, though there are likely exceptions where it works because the colors are so harmonious. * Black oxfords only. Socks need to be dark blue, dark grey, or black. * Pocket square probably not OK. I usually wear them and there's no more reliable way to raise eyebrows and evoke accusations of dandyism than to wear the square. Since conservative business dress is about not evoking cries of dandyism, they should probably be kept out of the office (a stipulations, by the way, found in Nicholas Storey's recent book on the subject). Note - I am not necessarily advocating this style of dress. I'm just laying out what I consider to be the foundation of conservative business dress - not UCBD - as classically understood. But since standards have deteriorated in the office, this probably now qualifies as UCBD in most urban spaces. But relative to WAYWRN and, say, Mr. PTWilliams, I'll accept Manton's working definitions.

 

[Manton]

I don't want this thread to become a discussion of "Is X conservative business dress or not?" I think that would get dull. And, it misses the point.

The point of this thread, again, is not to define conservative business dress. Remeber how thread after thread of "Is Y Trad?" made that subforum so tedious? Let's not do that here.

The point of this thread is to see how we can combine a certain level of flair (no Office Space) with the necessity of dressing soberly in a business enviornment. So, it's about what looks good and what we can get away with. I think by now we all know how to achieve Absolute conservative business dress on the conservative business dress Kelvin scale. That's pretty easy. I also think that, these days, the regular WAYWRN goes way too far most of the time.

This thread is an outgrowth of the SF ***** session thread to see if we can have a different kind of conversation. Hence the subtitle "An Experiment."

Originally Posted by Bounder

Manton: Dimples are, of course, OK, indeed, required. But I am not a fan of the arching tie aka "the tie woody" in business dress. Please comment.
I like it in moderation. To make it really arch, you need a tie clasp or a vest or both. Without it the tie will naturally fall, which is fine with me.

Originally Posted by radicaldog

This seems generally true, yet Agnelli often managed to pull off great ensembles with very little contrast (e.g. mid/light grey flannel suit, light sky blue shirt, very light gray tie with a bit of texture -- sometimes they were even all solids!).
True. This is case by case, or "I know it when I see it." Sometimes it looks good. I did not think Moo's was as good. The more I reflect on it, I think monochrome looks better with blues and grays than with browns and tans. I also think, as I said earlier, that light on light is the hardest tonal combination to get right.

Originally Posted by ruben

I feel as if TSA screenings have made loafers perfectly acceptable business dress. On midweek and early morning flights you never see anyone in laceups anymore.
Loafers are acceptable in business and have been for many years. Personally, I still dislike loafers with a suit. If you are going to do it, it's best to wear a sleek, sturdy loafter -- a Lobb or a Green, say -- that keeps its shape and not a soft loafer that shows all its creases. The latter really are only for odd jackets and casual wear.

On knit ties: they can work. I wear them to work sometimes. Not often. I might do so soon just as a demo. They are my go-to tie for odd jackets.

On bow ties: I pretty much never see them in New York. On a genuine trad, or on a certain type of English inspired dandy, I would say they are OK. But to do it well they must be a part of your personality, which must be known. I think for most guys it would not work. As a general matter, bow ties look much better with odd jacekts than with suits, and MUCH better with a vest than without.

 

[in stitches]

Originally Posted by KObalto

Best MC thread in ages. Great to have you back, Manton.

yes

Originally Posted by Mr. Moo

Thanks for the comments, guys. Makes sense to me and I agree on all points. Good learning thread for sure.

Here's another...

Tie is cashmere, hanky is silk. Suit is brown with a pale red and pale blue overcheck. Shirt is solid light blue.

i dont much about conservative business dress my working environment is the polar opposite, but i think both of your entries were great

Originally Posted by Manton

This is awesome.

Originally Posted by Connemara

I know

it is rather awesome

Originally Posted by gnatty8

But he did:

 

[cold war painter]

Originally Posted by aj_del

How conservative business dress are

1. button down collars

Originally Posted by Eustace Tilley

1. conservative business dress

If we're doing 7 continents, it is worth noting that this is not English conservative business dress.

(Admitting to my off-SR shirtmaker that I sometimes wear a tie with a button-down earned me a sideways look and a comment about my non-UK origins.)

 

[Eustace Tilley]

^ This thread will only get more and more interesting as everyone chirps in with a 'in my neck of the woods this is/isn't conservative business dress."

I don't think that was Manton's intention with the '7 continents' remark.

 

[MBreinin]

Originally Posted by Manton

I don't want this thread to become a discussion of "Is X conservative business dress or not?" I think that would get dull. And, it misses the point.

The point of this thread, again, is not to define conservative business dress. Remeber how thread after thread of "Is Y Trad?" made that subforum so tedious? Let's not do that here.

The point of this thread is to see how we can combine a certain level of flair (no Office Space) with the necessity of dressing soberly in a business enviornment. So, it's about what looks good and what we can get away with. I think by now we all know how to achieve Absolute conservative business dress on the conservative business dress Kelvin scale. That's pretty easy. I also think that, these days, the regular WAYWRN goes way too far most of the time.

This thread is an outgrowth of the SF ***** session thread to see if we can have a different kind of conversation. Hence the subtitle "An Experiment."

On bow ties: I pretty much never see them in New York. On a genuine trad, or on a certain type of English inspired dandy, I would say they are OK. But to do it well they must be a part of your personality, which must be known. I think for most guys it would not work. As a general matter, bow ties look much better with odd jacekts than with suits, and MUCH better with a vest than without.

Aside from a black tie event, I don't think there is any business function in New Orleans (from drunken lunches to a full trial in federal court) where I would be out of place, or given strange looks, in this fit. I would not interview in this (simply because I would not want to be that "bow tie guy"), but I have interviewed in far worse...during the Dark Ages (Pre-SF).

I open it up for discussion.

Mike

 

[Xiaogou]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

"Never" is a strong word. Even if it's possible for an all-solid outfit to look good, you still have to carefully coordinate the pieces so that they form a cohesive aesthetic whole. The particular outfit in question does not achieve that. Each solid is completely unrelated to the others.

Foof-it to proof-it

 

[Xiaogou]

Originally Posted by MBreinin

Aside from a black tie event, I don't think there is any business function in New Orleans (from drunken lunches to a full trial in federal court) where I would be out of place, or given strange looks, in this fit. I would not interview in this (simply because I would not want to be that "bow tie guy"), but I have interviewed in far worse...during the Dark Ages (Pre-SF).

I open it up for discussion.

Mike

My best friend said the most pompous guy always wear bowties at law firms. He means Yankees though

 

[Threadbearer]

Originally Posted by Connemara

Everything is Brooks Bros.

That's a BB tie? Looks too lux and textural for the Brethren. Do they still sell that one, or is it Old School?