Alden LWB Barrie Question: Narrower width vs 1/2 size smaller?

[Orgetorix]

I'm surprised at how many people here seem to think it's OK to try to return shoes that have been worn. It isn't. It's only OK to return them if there's a manufacturing defect or if they're still in a condition such that the retailer can sell them to someone whom they will fit. Try-on creases are one thing, but scuffed soles are unacceptable.

If you wear your shoes out and scuff up the soles, they're yours. Doesn't matter if you discover you bought the wrong size or the salesman put you in the wrong size. It's your job to make sure your shoes fit before you make them unreturnable. If that means you have to curb your enthusiasm for showing off your new babies for a couple days and just wear them around the house on carpet to make sure they fit, that's what you have to do.

This is not directed at the OP, by the way. Sounds like he's thinking about this rightly, which is commendable.

 

[Tomboys]

Originally Posted by Claus

Under the assumption that ball length (heel-to-ball measurement) is not a relevant as Brannock would like you to think, your shoe size would be (US) 9 D or E.

This is exactly why the SAs at the SF Alden don't like to measure feet per se. Based on my conversation with them, a lot of their customers become fixated on a size and only want to buy that size only to complain later that the shoes, "don't fit". Hence, that is why they resist measuring and have the customer go by feel instead.

Also, a shoe's last plays an important role in determining the dynamic fit of any shoe, so again, the numeric number is just a reference point, not an end all.

Originally Posted by Claus

Sounds as if it fit like it should, given that Alden uses combination lasts, IIRC. Switching ball width (from D to E) will automatically increase heel width (from B to C).

This is just what you've experienced: A slightly wider heel width.

I'm aware of this. Hence, that is why I determined that the Barrie last (in the shoes I was looking at) was not a good match for me.

Originally Posted by Orgetorix

I'm surprised at how many people here seem to think it's OK to try to return shoes that have been worn. It isn't. It's only OK to return them if there's a manufacturing defect or if they're still in a condition such that the retailer can sell them to someone whom they will fit. Try-on creases are one thing, but scuffed soles are unacceptable.

If you wear your shoes out and scuff up the soles, they're yours. Doesn't matter if you discover you bought the wrong size or the salesman put you in the wrong size. It's your job to make sure your shoes fit before you make them unreturnable. If that means you have to curb your enthusiasm for showing off your new babies for a couple days and just wear them around the house on carpet to make sure they fit, that's what you have to do.

This is not directed at the OP, by the way. Sounds like he's thinking about this rightly, which is commendable.

With all due respect, I disagree. Sometimes people make an honest mistake and there's nothing wrong with asking for help as long as the following criterias are met:

1). Accepts full responsibility for the error.
2). Understands and accepts that whatever actions (or non-actions) will be at the discretion of the person he's dealing with.
3). Thanks the person he's dealing with for their consideration regardless of the outcome.
4). Modifies his behavior to ensure future errors don't occur.

And, yes, while I agree that owning a mistake and, "sucking it up" is commendable, I also find it commendable when a person can admit to a mistake and is willing to ask for help knowing that they could be judged and/or have their request rejected.

 

[Orgetorix]

^ I don't disagree. If someone wants to own their mistake and hope for mercy from the retailer, that's fine. The problem is when they try to return them expecting a refund and get bent out of shape if the retailer can't or doesn't do anything for them.

 

[Claus]

Originally Posted by Tomboys

Also, a shoe's last plays an important role in determining the dynamic fit of any shoe, so again, the numeric number is just a reference point, not an end all.

I agree about the reference point.

The question is: In what direction should one search?

• Stick to the last, and trying to make it "fit" by sizing up or down? For some customers, this ends in shoes which are obviously too short or too long.
  
• Or stick to the measured size, and change lasts until there's one that fits? This way, one can almost be sure that these shoes are neither too short nor too long.

The problem is not that customers may become fixated on a size. It only becomes a problem when they are already fixated on a particular pair of shoes, and -- therefore -- last.

 

[mcbrown]

Originally Posted by pelonpelon175

Hence my question: wondering if any of you have experience about sizing on the Barrie last --- and/or whether this crease might actually be typical of this shoe?

Unfortunately there is more to sizing than just the last. The shoe design matters a great deal as well, not to mention other obvious factors such as variations in manufacturing. I have Barrie chukka's in 10D that feel very roomy, while I have Barrie NST's in 10E that feel snug. I don't own LWB's, but I imagine the extra material around the toe box would alter the feel in actual usage vs. say PTB's. The only way to know how a given shoe is going to feel on you in various sizes is to try it on in various sizes.

Having said that, and assuming you can't return the shoes, I would suggest just living with them for a little while to see how they feel after the soles break in and loosen up. Some deep creasing on the toes is normal for shell cordovan shoes, albeit disconcerting at first - it doesn't "bounce back" to shape like calfskin, but the upside is that the deep wavy creases shouldn't get worse over time if the shoes aren't abused. All of my shell cordovan shoes have waves in the toe box, even the tightest-fitting of them.

So rather than worrying about the creasing, just focus on the feel as you get used to them and wear them in different conditions. Do they feel tighter as the day goes on? How do they feel in different socks? Do your feet feel like they slide around as you walk or do they stay in place? Do you feel more than a little slippage in the heel, and does it not get better over time as the soles loosen up? Do you feel any strain around your calves and ankles from fighting against the shoes to keep your feet stable? At the end of the day, how your shoes feel is the ultimate measure of how they fit.

Let me illustrate my point with a story. My first pair of Alden's was a pair of 2161's (black cordovan cap-toe bluchers). The salesman sized me at 10.5 E, and I was used to wearing 10.5 D in every piece of crap shoe I had ever bought previously. I thought he had given me the wrong size. The creases that developed right away just further convinced me he had been wrong. How on earth had I let this guy give me the wrong size in a shoe that cost more than 5 times more than I had ever paid for a shoe before??? But I had worn them, on pavement, so I was reluctantly stuck with these heavy, ill-fitting, ridiculously expensive shoes. After a month or so, however, I found myself not wanting to rotate them with my crappy shoes because they were so much better for walking around (nothing beats that double sole for pounding pavement, IMO). I suddenly realized that they fit me just right. In fact, they were the most comfortable shoe I had ever owned. The only reason I thought they were the wrong size was the creasing - everything about the feel was perfect.

So in summary, your shoes may very well be the wrong size, but I wouldn't assume they are just because of the creasing. Live with them for a while, then go back and try the same shoe in a different size and see how they compare. By then you'll know, and in the worst case you can probably recoup 80% or more of your purchase price through SF or ebay.

 

[pelonpelon175]

Originally Posted by Orgetorix

^ I don't disagree. If someone wants to own their mistake and hope for mercy from the retailer, that's fine. The problem is when they try to return them expecting a refund and get bent out of shape if the retailer can't or doesn't do anything for them.
D'accord!

 

[pelonpelon175]

Thank you everyone for the feedback. I'm really impressed by all the knowledge and experience by members of SF (I just became a member).
Mcbrown, your experience with the 2161s is good to know... it sounds very much like mine.
Yes, I'm "stuck" with the shoes, since I wouldn't try and exchange them now that I've walked outside, but I look forward to seeing how they work out over the next few weeks. Even if they never feel "perfect", at least I still think they are beautiful and I will have learned something... so, next time I buy a nice pair of shoes (probably sooner rather than later -- I'm starting to get obsessed after reading all the threads on this site), I'll be better informed.