What martial art should I learn?

[mizanation]

oh i forgot, i'll be in seattle for new years, bro. where you gonna be?

 

[emptym]

Hi mizatation, I was wondering what you thought of my post a page or two ago.
m

 

[mizanation]

missed the last couple pages, eason, you had some funny stuff in there.

emptym, about your post. i think there are better ways to learn how to make friends out of your enemy than doing martial arts. psychology is much more effective. i'm actually not really sure what you are talking about with the "making friends through martial arts" thing.

also, you are assuming that sports-specific styles like mma, judo, wrestling, etc... are not conducive to what you called, "making friends." if you ever go to a submission wrestling tournament, everyone is friendly. even after getting your ass kicked, after the match, you're talking to your opponent on friendly terms. the whole point is that you can practice a sport in a regulated fashion that minimizes injury, but at the same time gets as close to a physical fight as possible. in sports specific martial arts, you always lose from time to time. it's not a big deal. in class, you might get tapped out a few times, you might tap some people out. in sparring you might get tagged with a good left hook, you might get someone with a good body shot. in competition, you might lose as much as you win.

the main thing is that it's real. it's honest. it's not pretending, "what if i tried to hit you and you did something and i did something." it's actually competing against someone on a real, honest physical level. what this does is break down egos, it destroys posturing and heirarchy. when you are interacting with someone at that honest level, you can actually have real respect. not just respecting someone because they know more katas or because they have a darker belt.

the flip side to this is when you have martial arts that have heirarchies based on non-performance-based qualifications. you might join a school with a friend but since that friend got promoted before you, you have to call him "sir" or "senpai" or something like that. if you don't address him correctly, he gets mad at you since you are disrespecting him. a couple days ago, you guys were good friends, just training together. now, you have to address him differently and he acts like a dick around you. what is the benefit of a system like this? it only creates baseless ego and false, meaningless respect. you're using archaic japanese or chinese terminology in ways that aren't even used that way in the original countries. i've seen this happen in tons of schools. at every school that i've seen this happen, it's when people are practicing a martial art where your progress is not measured by performance, but by artificial rituals.

anyways, just my two cents.

 

[emptym]

Thanks for the response. I appreciate it. You make very good points, particularly the one about friendships and physical contact, within a regulated setting.

Your other point too about false shells, such as a heirarchy w/o real ability is good too. I agree completely. But here are a few questions to push:

Do you think that heirarchy can sometimes be paired with real ability? Is it possible, for example that one's friend is in fact better at the martial art, and in this context deserves respect (which is not to say s/he should, in any way, "act like a dick")?

Do you think that forms are sometimes not empty? I remember practicing forms and thinking they were worthless, and then getting into a real situation and doing movements automatically that I realized later were from a particular form that I had repeated endlessly.

Is all respect due to those who perform? What would you think, for example of those older masters who cannot lift their legs above their waists, but know exactly how a kick should be done? Perhaps it depends on one's definition of performance.

 

[Matt]

I will buy in....

Originally Posted by emptym

Do you think that heirarchy can sometimes be paired with real ability? Is it possible, for example that one\\\\\\'s friend is in fact better at the martial art, and in this context deserves respect

You missed the key word in Ryans spiel on this....

\\"based on non-performance-based qualifications\\"

a natural order becomes evident in any gym, but if the order evolves over a superior knowledge of chi sao, despite the fact that Dr. Chi Sao has a habit of wearing left hooks on his jaw and then crying foul because \\'hey, sifu said you have to punch down my centerline\\', then the hierarchy becomes very artificial.

Do you think that forms are sometimes not empty? I remember practicing forms and thinking they were worthless, and then getting into a real situation and doing movements automatically that I realized later were from a particular form that I had repeated endlessly.

The issue I have with forms is that the time you spend learning them and looking in mirrors to make sure that your wrist is properly cocked would be more productively spent in head gear learning to bob and weave at full speed....if simple fight effectiveness is your goal....there are a zillion and one reasons why ppl take up martial arts...but if fight effectiveness is a priority, then there is a reason that basically any guy spending six months in a Thai gym is going to come out on top of any guy spending six months working his Shotokan katas.

The other way to flip that is to say do you really think that in a \\"real situation\\" the duck-comeup-righthook to the head does not come out just as naturally to a boxer as your forms came to you. The one big advantage is the fact that the boxer has done that a thousand times before, and a moving solid target, and at full speed.

Is all respect due to those who perform? What would you think, for example of those older masters who cannot lift their legs above their waists, but know exactly how a kick should be done? Perhaps it depends on one\\\\\\'s definition of performance.

You mean like Van Dammes brother in the first kickboxer movie?

I would suggest such older masters try and roll with octogenarian Helio Gracie. He seems to be holding up pretty well.

 

[emptym]

Originally Posted by m@T

IYou missed the key word in Ryans spiel on this....

\\"based on non-performance-based qualifications\\"

Thanks! I did miss that!

Originally Posted by m@T

The issue I have with forms is that the time you spend learning them and looking in mirrors to make sure that your wrist is properly cocked would be more productively spent in head gear learning to bob and weave at full speed....if simple fight effectiveness is your goal....there are a zillion and one reasons why ppl take up martial arts...but if fight effectiveness is a priority, then there is a reason that basically any guy spending six months in a Thai gym is going to come out on top of any guy spending six months working his Shotokan katas.

The other way to flip that is to say do you really think that in a \\"real situation\\" the duck-comeup-righthook to the head does not come out just as naturally to a boxer as your forms came to you. The one big advantage is the fact that the boxer has done that a thousand times before, and a moving solid target, and at full speed.

I think that both forms and sparring are necessary.
Boxers don't have quite the elaborate forms that martial artists do, but they do practice combinations on their own. Both/and, not either/or.

Originally Posted by m@T

You mean like Van Dammes brother in the first kickboxer movie?

I would suggest such older masters try and roll with octogenarian Helio Gracie. He seems to be holding up pretty well.

I don't remember the movie. I'm sure Helio Gracie is a bad ass mo-fo, and perhaps he is to be respected above all other brazilian jujitsu practitioners. But can he "perform" all the techniques better than all other practitioners? My point is that performance is not the only criterion for respect. It is however, a very important one, and I agree completely that there are far too many instructors who have titles and hold degrees but have little knowledge, skill, wisdom, experience.

 

[celery]

I think that the most important thing a martial art can teach is how to react and how to have confidence in your actions.

This is why competition and real sparring are integral imo to any art meant for self defense. You can learn forms and theories all day, but unless you repeatedly face off against resisting opponents, everything you learn is next to pointless.

 

[Eason]

Originally Posted by mizanation

oh i forgot, i'll be in seattle for new years, bro. where you gonna be?

I'll be chilling with my girlfriend who is visiting from korea, and possibly her sister, lets meet up though yo!

 

[West24]

M@T i will be ur new best friend!
bffaeaeae?
ne way its good to see other people who actually understand how hard boxing is. i was expecting a bunch of comments from karate guys saying boxing is so one dimentional you would get killed in any fight etc. etc. its good to see some people who have actually boxed/sparred and understand how tuff it really is. if you want a hobby and something maybe more relaxing go to one of those karate schools that teaches you form everyday for hours etc, and if you want to actually get into some serious shape and learn how to fight and also feel how it is to get punched in the face and keep moving forward, take up boxing.

 

[mizanation]

emptym, you can respect people for whatever reason you want, man. i'm not saying performance should be the measure for respect. you have to figure out for yourself why you would want to respect somebody.

 

[emptym]

Originally Posted by mizanation

i'm not saying performance should be the measure for respect.

Then I misunderstood you.

 

[mizanation]

respect is something you decide to give to someone for your own reasons.

performance is a measure of ability.

two different things.

you can respect someone regardless of their ability.

 

[retronotmetro]

Originally Posted by emptym

I think that both forms and sparring are necessary.

Here's an interesting recent article that addresses the relationship between kata and sparring.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/20...ta-and-kumite/

 

[mizanation]

nice article. but, yeah, it's just common sense.

forms are not necessary for fighting. you are fooling yourself if you think so.

what boxers do is not a form. it's shadow boxing. it's actually using the techniques they would use in a real fight.

 

[emptym]

Thanks for the link, retronotmetro.
Much of what it says may be true. But I think all things in life are interdependent or connected. The question is, can we see the connection? Of course, some things are more or less connected. I've found forms to be very helpful for sparring and self-defense, but maybe that's due to the forms, my past instructors, etc.

To miz, retro, m@t, or anyone: If you teach, do you teach forms ever? If so, what value do you see in them if you find no connection to sparring and self-defense?

In a way, our discussion is one among those w/ a shared conviction: that martial arts are helpful for real fights. We merely debate the particularities. Others might and do argue that sparring itself (boxing included), with its various rules and referees is simply another form of forms, far removed from real fight situations. What would you say to them?