The Bespoke Shoes Thread

[poorsod]

Do you guys have any good loafer ideas? I'm thinking of

1) Weston 180 variant in cordovan

2) butterfly loafer with a lower vamp

 

[jerrybrowne]



@jerrybrowne

A higher quarter line wouldn't be a bad thing at all. I think you'll probably still have the problem of the side blowing out from the insole though, it's always going to happen on a casual when you have a bit of insole designed to be weight bearing just floating there against the side of the shoe. The facings of a shoe or boot can mitigate the issue but you don't gave that luxury on a slip on.

I'm personally not a fan of an insole up in waist, I've never seen it offer any more support than a long inside heel stiffener provides and that avoids any blowing issues because it's secured inside the quarters. Some swear by them though, and have some success with it.

If I were a gambling man, I'd put a pound on your first order being a lace up with the insole support followed by the later casual pair and the order details simply copied from one ticket to the next.

Thank you very much. This is very informative. They just started using these waist up insoles a couple of shoes ago. They are more comfortable, but I didn't know that there were other ways to achieve the same objective.

 

[jerrybrowne]



When I collected the copy and spoke to the lastmaker (St Crispin’s little brother), one thing he suggested I could do, was lowering the arch-support (filling-in a bit the concave section on the bottom of the last, so the insole is less raised under the arch) and the foot will sink deeper into the shoe. In the end, I didn’t do that; it wasn’t necessary as the loafer doesn’t gape when bending the foot.

This is an interesting idea- I'll have to ask if they do this for my loafers. This was the first pair of loafers they made for me using the new seat up insoles. I believe the insoles resulted in the bowing. Lowering the arch support could have minimized or eliminated the bowing problem because the bowing occurs exactly where the insole raises up.

It is my understanding the cordovan loafer and the forthcoming suede loafer are both Cleverley. I don’t know if Cleverley routinely works with dedicated loafer lasts, or if they make loafers and slip-on shoes from the same last. When you’re the next time in London (or at Cleverley’s next trunk show near you), show them the cordovan loafer, explain the problem and discuss possible solutions. I believe it is the last that needs alterations. not the pattern.

I don't think they have a separate last for loafers (I wish they did for a number of reasons). I do think that the usage of cordovan exacerbated the bowing issue, because it is a bit stiffer. They are going to take the shoes back for adjustments the next time they are in Boston.....

 

[jerrybrowne]



Do you guys have any good loafer ideas? I'm thinking of

1) Weston 180 variant in cordovan

2) butterfly loafer with a lower vamp

Love the butterfly loafer. I know you like the lower vamp version, but these, by Delos, are perfect;



I read somewhere that Edward Green has a butterfly loafer that is available again MTO.....

 

[jerrybrowne]



I'm hoping to get my hands on some zug for a Galway style veldschoen boot since I missed the boat last year on those.

Also thinking of going back to Foster & son for their bespoke "Thomas" brogues in dark brown reverse calf.

IF it's not too much upcharge there's been an EG oundle style bespoke single monk in russian reindeer from cleverley popping into mind a lot lately too.

These all sound great. For the Cleverley- reindeer oundles, I'd ask them to be careful with making the strap too thin- in my experience this leather, while great, can crack, particularly at places where there could be alot of stress.

 

[bengal-stripe]



Thank you very much. This is very informative. They just started using these waist up insoles a couple of shoes ago. They are more comfortable, but I didn't know that there were other ways to achieve the same objective.

This is a long heel stiffener.



while in a standard heel stiffener, both sides have approximately the same length, in the long one,
the medial (inner) side is extended and “cradles” and supports the arch of the foot.



As comparison: this is “insole up in waist”



I have no experience with “insole up in waist”, but I find the long heel stiffener to be divinely comfortable and I am one who swears by them.
Just ask for the long version for your next pair of shoes; you might never want to go back.

 

[ntempleman]

There should be a long inside and outside stiffener as standard on a casual shoe, to stop the quarters from stretching out of shape and also to provide substance for the quarters to grip the foot (presuming you've made a casual last that's been cleaned through the top line). That combined an insole up in waist becomes a bit of a belt and braces approach.

 

[Monty L]



These all sound great. For the Cleverley- reindeer oundles, I'd ask them to be careful with making the strap too thin- in my experience this leather, while great, can crack, particularly at places where there could be alot of stress.

Thanks! I believe I just saw a photo of that exact issue on permanent style when I was cruising google for RR monk photos. I've only just gotten my reindeer wallet, so the jury is still way out on wear and tear. Part of me wonders if incorporating some other material into the shoe around the buckle would be worth it, but nothing overly inspiring, in terms of aesthetics, comes readily to mind.

 

[DWFII]



There should be a long inside and outside stiffener as standard on a casual shoe, to stop the quarters from stretching out of shape and also to provide substance for the quarters to grip the foot (presuming you've made a casual last that's been cleaned through the top line). That combined an insole up in waist becomes a bit of a belt and braces approach.

If I understand you (I wouldn't limit it to "casual" shoes), I agree. Many RTW and less-than-high-end shoes use relatively short heel stiffeners. Of course, it takes a hung lining (not a given) to mount long stiffeners and in some cases, a bit of creative designing (chelseas) to use them.

But IMO, the bare minimum length for a heel stiffener should be close to the standard last length. A stiffener that is longer on the medial side is generally extra long--longer than the SLL.

But comparing notes...don't you think a good side liner functions nearly as well as an extended heel stiff? Isn't that its purpose--to continue the support all the way to the toe stiffener?

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[ntempleman]

I think you may have run a little further on from my post - I was talking specifically about casual shoes with regards to long in + out stiffeners, and they very nearly always have a hung lining in any case. Perhaps there's a misunderstanding in the term casual, which I regard as a slip-on or loafer etc.

I wouldn't expect a side lining to perform as well as, or nearly as well as, a long inside stiffener for a given task, no. One is a floated strip of calf upper leather to provide a bit of extra body and help maintain a toe shape, the other is veg tanned cow belly that's been pasted between the upper and lining for support and reinforcement.

 

[DWFII]



I think you may have run a little further on from my post - I was talking specifically about casual shoes with regards to long in + out stiffeners, and they very nearly always have a hung lining in any case. Perhaps there's a misunderstanding in the term casual, which I regard as a slip-on or loafer etc.

I wouldn't expect a side lining to perform as well as, or nearly as well as, a long inside stiffener for a given task, no. One is a floated strip of calf upper leather to provide a bit of extra body and help maintain a toe shape, the other is veg tanned cow belly that's been pasted between the upper and lining for support and reinforcement.

Well, I understood "casual" referred to slip-ons or loafers too...which is why I said that I wouldn't limit it to casuals. But it's just such a fundamental principle...the way I was taught...that the longer the heel stiffener the better (within reason, of course). And so many shoes...esp. casual shoes, use a stiffener that is little more than a "patch" at the back of the heel, not extending very far around the heel at all. (Which speaks to your remarks about linings in loafers being critical to "structure.") Even some dress shoes are like that...it's only a matter of degree.

Re: sidelinings...thanks for the insights.

How about "nearly as well?" FWIW, I use veg tanned cow belly (2+ ounce) pasted in-between the upper and liner and over lapping the heel and toe stiffener as a matter of preference. I was always taught that if not pasted, side liners can creak. And, forbye, a good side liner can mitigate cracking that occurs just above the welt line.

 

[ntempleman]

I've never thought to do that myself. Do the vamps still bend ok with all that leather pasted together? Seems like it would make for a lot of stiffness.

 

[DWFII]



I've never thought to do that myself. Do the vamps still bend ok with all that leather pasted together? Seems like it would make for a lot of stiffness.

Well, I don't think I'm unique in doing that but I'm always interested in the why's and wherefores of other traditions.

The vamps bend just about like they would if the sideliners weren't pasted in. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know but the sideliner doesn't reach much higher than an inch above the feather. In the larger scheme of things, that's not going to affect flexibility much. Certainly not as much as putting a longwing over the top of a full vamp, or even backing the vamp.

What it does do is soften the creases at the sides of the shoe. Again, common knowledge for those in the Trade...but where does a shoe crack? In the creases, almost always. And where in the creases? Usually at the sides...at least initially...seldom on top.

That's the theory, in any case, and it makes sense to me, so I do it.

 

[ntempleman]

I must have misunderstood, but I'm picturing a shoe with a side lining pasted in from heel stiff to puff, from the same leather as you'd make a heel stiffener from, and the picture doesn't look right at all.

 

[DWFII]



I must have misunderstood, but I'm picturing a shoe with a side lining pasted in from heel stiff to puff, from the same leather as you'd make a heel stiffener from, and the picture doesn't look right at all.

You're correct--it doesn't look right. I guess I wasn't clear...my apologies.

I use somewhere between 4-6 iron shoulder or belly for heel stiffeners and something in the neighborhood of 1.5-2+ ounce veg tanned side leather (not particularly stiff...not as stiff or as thick as some vamp leather such as Annonay) for side liners. And anything from 3 iron shoulder to 2 ounce side leather for toe stiffeners depending on the shoe (men's or women's, etc.).

Otherwise yes, there is an overlap of the sideliners at both heel stiffener and toe stiffener. And yes, pasted.

Not, I suspect, crazy different from what you're doing but...horses for courses, I guess.

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