restaurant dress codes: reasonable or pretentious?

[rjakapeanut]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

OP,

I don't meant this to be insulting, but really this seems to be an issue about how you were brought up. it is basic manners to remove your hat indoors, and certainly when you are eating. it has been part of western civilization for hundreds, and probrably thousands of years. its an issue of respect - not removing your hat is disrespectful to the people sharing the eating space.

I dont freak out about it, but I was in orlando last week, and every time I went into a place to eat and saw how many men and boys were wearing hats it alloyed me. I didn't let it bother me, but I didn't like it.

and I would act just like matt's dad, if my son ate with a baseball cap or hat indoors.

no offense taken. your post would certainly be insulting if it applied to me, but once again i must stress: this isn't a question of my own manners. as stated before, i always take off a hat when entering someones home, a restaurant, church, etc.

i buy into it, just because it's regarded as courteous. i buy into it because it's not that big of a hassle for me to take my damned hat off.

the issue here is WHY we regard it as courteous. no one has given me a decent explanation.

 

[Asch]

You said that you found it "understandable" that flip-flops are prohibited in some restaurants. Why? Because you find the sight or the smell of feet unpleasant? Well, why do you find that sight or smell unpleasant rather than delightful? Etc. It's not as if you'd catch diseases if people wore flip-flops or wife-beaters in restaurants any more than you'd catch diseases if they wore baseball caps.

As the other guy said, asking for justifications about why something is regarded as polite or impolite is about as productive as asking someone for justifications of their color preferences.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

no offense taken. your post would certainly be insulting if it applied to me, but once again i must stress: this isn't a question of my own manners. as stated before, i always take off a hat when entering someones home, a restaurant, church, etc.

i buy into it, just because it's regarded as courteous. i buy into it because it's not that big of a hassle for me to take my damned hat off.

the issue here is WHY we regard it as courteous. no one has given me a decent explanation.

no, sorry, I think that it is a weakness in your upbringing that this is hard for you to understand. although, on the flip side, your curiosity is admirable.


cultural symbols are hard to read. for most of us, seeing the sole of somebody's foot wouldn't be offensive, but to many asians it is very offensive, for instance.

if I had to give you an answer, I would say that uncovering ones head is a sign of vulnrability, similar to bowing ones head. traditionally, you remove your hat when talking to somebody that you show respect for. as an extention, you remove your hat when you come into a room with other people, or when in the presence of a lady.

 

[Recoil]

Originally Posted by iammatt

You don't wear a hat at dinner. Jeez, kids these days. My father would have knocked the ******* thing off of my head.
I didn't have to look past the first reply to find exactly what I was thinking. ^^ Someone give this waitress a raise, it's bad enough everyone dresses like **** today, but hats at the table, my god, it doesn't get any worse than that.

 

[cptjeff]

Originally Posted by Piobaire

Oy gevalt. You don't see a difference between a gentile with a baseball cap vs. an observant Jew with a kippah on?
I do. But it's not an 'excpetion for religion' thing. Since the no hat rule is a religious convention to begin with, I believe that it has no place as a mandatory part of society. For me, the difference lies in the formality of the hat. But the "OMG nO hats EVar!" attitude has got to go. Hats, as with clothes in general, have degrees of formality. If you're in a restaurant that permits t shirts and shorts along with the inevitably baggy NFL jerseys and sagging jeans, a baseball cap should not be an issue. In fact, it may look much more respectable then the rest of the getup. If you're in an establishment that requires a coat, a baseball cut would not cut it, but I would have no problem with a fedora or a nice tweed cap. If the saints jerseys were acceptable, the hat should have been too.

 

[cldpsu]

I think Why gave a good reason that shares the same idea as mine. Did you read my post? What do you think? You're right, most people are posting that a hat must be taken off, failing to address the reason for the custom.

 

[cldpsu]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

no, sorry, I think that it is a weakness in your upbringing that this is hard for you to understand. although, on the flip side, your curiosity is admirable.


cultural symbols are hard to read. for most of us, seeing the sole of somebody's foot wouldn't be offensive, but to many asians it is very offensive, for instance.

if I had to give you an answer, I would say that uncovering ones head is a sign of vulnrability, similar to bowing ones head. traditionally, you remove your hat when talking to somebody that you show respect for. as an extention, you remove your hat when you come into a room with other people, or when in the presence of a lady.

Right, you remove your hat and present yourself. You share yourself with that person rather than stay distant, tucked away in clothing and hats. What you said and what a few others have said addresses the "why", which is what he wants. We've been getting a lot of "what".

 

[rjakapeanut]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

no, sorry, I think that it is a weakness in your upbringing that this is hard for you to understand.

clearly you aren't comprehending everything here. i'll try to break it down.

wearing hats to a restaurant/dinner is considered to be impolite, discourteous, etc. that is a fact that i completely understand. BECAUSE it's something that i respect as fact and fully understand, it shows that i WAS raised properly -- atleast as far as this is concerned.

we're done with that.

all i need from you is a specific explanation as to why seeing someone wear a hat in a restaurant is undesirable. if you can't answer that question, do us all a favor and don't post.

theres a BIG difference between a hat-wearer and a flip-flop-wearer. what if i don't want to see your ugly feet while i'm at dinner?

 

[acidboy]

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

here's my issue: i understand that restaurants have their dress codes and what-not. i respect their right to enforce these dress codes. but seriously? this is a ******* uppity steakhouse, not emeril's. who gives a **** if this guy wears his hat? who are you to tell this guy to not wear his hat?

i understand if you're trying to create a specific look for your clientele and all of that nonsense, but to actually tell someone to take their hat off? what happens if i don't? will you throw me out? throw a paying customer out for...wearing a baseball cap? whats the cutoff here. if some 9 year old kid is wearing a hat, do you tell him to take it off? whats the cutoff age? if the kids 13, do you tell him to take it off? what if a kid is 14 but looks 18, what happens when you tell him?

i mean seriously...i certainly have a cynical mind....but am i the only one asking "who gives a ****?" when it comes to these unreasonable and pretentious restaurant dress codes?

you make food. i eat food. i pay you for food. the end.

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

clearly you aren't comprehending everything here. i'll try to break it down.

wearing hats to a restaurant/dinner is considered to be impolite, discourteous, etc. that is a fact that i completely understand. BECAUSE it's something that i respect as fact and fully understand, it shows that i WAS raised properly -- atleast as far as this is concerned.

we're done with that.

so which one is it?

 

[rjakapeanut]

i don't understand how those are contradicting points.

yes, i understand that removing the hat is a courtesy. i understand that, in fact i comply with it. it's a social norm, but nothing more.

who gives a **** if someones wearing a hat though?

 

[cldpsu]

Consider the extreme: What if we all wore ski masks to the table?

 

[rjakapeanut]

do we regard ski-masks and baseball caps as the same thing in any way?

 

[cldpsu]

You haven't been reading what people have been saying, especially myself. The point is that wearing a hat hides the face, and the face is critical in human conversation and reading people (facial expressions indicate mood). No, of course a ski mask and a hat are not the same thing, but they all fall in the category of hiding the damn face. You know when people say "look at me when I'm talking to you?" Yeah... well with a hat on, or a ski mask to be more extreme, that kind of makes it difficult. You might be thinking "it's just a damn baseball cap, I can still see most of the face, the bill isn't even bent!", but still, you're obstructing someone's view. It's part of a family of head gear that are all subject to this custom that, as we've discussed, has its reasons, most likely due to tension among men and not knowing friend from foe, truth from lie.

Think poker and sunglasses, think Gladiator for Christ's sake, "You will remove your helmet and tell me your name", or even Troy, *takes off helmet*, "now you know who you're fighting".

 

[globetrotter]

Ok, I see the problem now, you're an A-hole.

Look, wearing a hat is a sign of disrespect. It bothers people because they feel that they arr not getting the level of minima respect that is due them. This bothers some people, this doesn't bother others.

If I am treating the room with the proper level of respect as dictated by our cultural norms, the other people should treat me with the same level of respect. If they don't, this has the potential to annoy.

Clear?

 

[Asch]

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

theres a BIG difference between a hat-wearer and a flip-flop-wearer. what if i don't want to see your ugly feet while i'm at dinner?

Obviously, as has been well-established in this thread, a lot of Americans happen to find it "ugly" to wear a hat at dinner, just as you may happen to find feet ugly. WHY do people dislike your hat-wearing? Well, WHY do you find (some) people's feet ugly? Such questions are ridiculous. It's not as if they don't have some kind of psychological answer, but the specifics of that answer have no bearing on the fact that customs exist in every culture, and that although your own preferences may not always match up with those customs, businesses are free to "enforce" whatever customs they like. You really don't get the subjectivity thing, do you?