Paying your dues, laziness, and the work-life balance...

[gdl203]

Interesting introspective thoughts. Thanks Flambeur

 

[MetroStyles]

You do what you have to do to get where you want to go.

If you are in a position that allows you to advance quickly without long hours, there is no reason to pay your dues. If you choose to work with a sense of entitlement, you have the freedom to do that. If you are a good reader of people, and you superiors deem that attitude fine (because they like you, or think you have good upper-mgmt skills, or whatever) then good for you.

I don't know anyone in finance who has a sense of entitlement regarding work hours (although they do have a sense of entitlement regarding massive bonuses, which they take as a given). People with a sense of entitlement or no work-ethic genuinely get lower-paying jobs. If they can pull it off though, at a more demanding job, good for them.

I don't believe in working hard being a virtue. It is a means to more money. It is not a means to virtue or something to be celebrated in itself. If you love what you do and want to go the extra mile, then go for it. If you hate what you do, but want to prove yourself to your peers/parents/society and crave more money either for vanity or for necessity, then go for it. If you don't give a **** about either of these things, then don't work hard. That would just be silly.

 

[montecristo#4]

Originally Posted by zbromer

I get it. Obama is not qualified to be POTUS. There is plenty of truth in that. But now he doesn't work hard?

Those were two distinct thoughts.

Obama does work hard.

 

[chrome_dout]

Originally Posted by Flambeur

One example of the stupidity I am talking about is teaching. When you say I want to become a teacher, people rarely question you or your worth or the hours you work.

Yet I know teachers who work 60-80 hours a week, are completely miserable, and hate their work/kids/etc. I've seen more politics bullshit, unprofessionalism, backstabbing at high schools than at any company (two serious girlfriend were both HS teachers + a few friends). But it's not something people questions or discuss.

I assume you are talking about public school teachers? I would imagine private school teachers are paid considerably more for their efforts. And I believe the topic of teachers has been discussed (Obama had some comments on Leno), but lately it has been placed on the back burner due to the current economic strife.

 

[MetroStyles]

Originally Posted by chrome_dout

I assume you are talking about public school teachers? I would imagine private school teachers are paid considerably more for their efforts. And I believe the topic of teachers has been discussed (Obama had some comments on Leno), but lately it has been placed on the back burner due to the current economic strife.

Private teachers are generally paid less than public school teachers, although the gap is narrowing.

 

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by Flambeur

I don't know if it's just me, but it seems like too many people (especially younger people) today have an expectation of easy work, huge rewards, comfort, etc.

You know, the typical "I am absolutely entitled to make money and have a brilliant career, but I only want to work thirty hours a week, take two months of vacation every year, and have tons of personal time to pursue my true passion of saving homosexual environmentalist hipster whales of the southern seas."

Whatever happened to hard work, ambition, understanding that you need to pay your dues, and all those other good things? Let's talk about it.

Originally Posted by MetroStyles

I don't believe in working hard being a virtue. It is a means to more money. It is not a means to virtue or something to be celebrated in itself. If you love what you do and want to go the extra mile, then go for it. If you hate what you do, but want to prove yourself to your peers/parents/society and crave more money either for vanity or for necessity, then go for it. If you don't give a **** about either of these things, then don't work hard. That would just be silly.

QED /thread

 

[Flambeur]

Originally Posted by MetroStyles

You do what you have to do to get where you want to go.

If you are in a position that allows you to advance quickly without long hours, there is no reason to pay your dues. If you choose to work with a sense of entitlement, you have the freedom to do that. If you are a good reader of people, and you superiors deem that attitude fine (because they like you, or think you have good upper-mgmt skills, or whatever) then good for you.

I don't know anyone in finance who has a sense of entitlement regarding work hours (although they do have a sense of entitlement regarding massive bonuses, which they take as a given). People with a sense of entitlement or no work-ethic genuinely get lower-paying jobs. If they can pull it off though, at a more demanding job, good for them.

I don't believe in working hard being a virtue. It is a means to more money. It is not a means to virtue or something to be celebrated in itself. If you love what you do and want to go the extra mile, then go for it. If you hate what you do, but want to prove yourself to your peers/parents/society and crave more money either for vanity or for necessity, then go for it. If you don't give a **** about either of these things, then don't work hard. That would just be silly.


You kind of just hit on it - obviously it also depends on whether you enjoy what you're doing or seeing the next step. Not that there is anything wrong in doing something just for the money and craving more and more of it, just the same way you want to hit a high score in a football game.

 

[Pennglock]

While no one wants lazy subordinates, I am not convinced that entitlement and a less-than-hardcore work ethic are the end of the world. The work-ethic expected in much of corporate america drives a lot of people to unhappiness. In my narrow employment experience, most young people possess work habits the polar opposite of those described in the Op. Focused on career to an unhealthy level such that their identity becomes tied to their job.

The concept of "paying your dues" is bullshit, and I have no use for it. You acquire the skills and experience needed to do the job, and anything beyond that such as 'seniority' or 'face-time' is a waste of life. Go somewhere where you can make the most of your talent, forget this waiting in line. Get the job done. Treat people well. Innovate and improve in the areas you're able. What else is there?

A healthy sense of entitlement is actually needed to make it anywhere in life. The goods aren't going to be delivered onto your lap. Always be expecting more, ask for it and try to take a piece.

Money and career are a means to an end for me, and my best hours are spent away from the office. Put in the time needed to earn the paycheck you want, but anything more is useless.

 

[MetroStyles]

Originally Posted by Pennglock

While no one wants lazy subordinates, I am not convinced that entitlement and a less-than-hardcore work ethic are the end of the world. The work-ethic expected in much of corporate america drives a lot of people to unhappiness. In my narrow employment experience, most young people possess work habits the polar opposite of those described in the Op. Focused on career to an unhealthy level such that their identity becomes tied to their job.

...

Money and career are a means to an end for me, and my best hours are spent away from the office. Put in the time needed to earn the paycheck you want, but anything more is useless.

I agree with you 100%. I see so many people my age who have never really given a real thought to what they want out of life, and simply slave away doing something they hate for 60+ hours a week just because it's what they think they should be doing. This is especially true of people working in finance. I've been there. I am there, but at least I am conscious of it and am trying to think about how to extricate myself out of it.

The thing is, as easy as it is to condemn this attitude, it is hard to really pull oneself out of it. Humans are social creatures - their relationship to others is the primary driver of happiness in life. It is certainly true that a man who makes $50k a year and lives in social circle that makes $30k on average is a happier man than the one who makes $200k and is in a social circle that makes $1MM on average.

It really is all relative, and unfortunately, once you've taken the "red pill" and seen the high-rolling, high-wealth side of things, and made all your social connections in that circle, it is extremely difficult to completely leave it and relocate yourself into another socioeconomic plane. The feeling of loss and resentment would probably be very high. This is in essence a form of greed - where what you have does not make you happy and keeps you craving for more, but the reasoning that wealth is not the driver of happiness does not appeal to the emotions as one would hope it would.

To cut this rambling short, my point is that while I personally hate working long hours at something I am not passionate about, I feel like I've "missed the exit" a long time ago that would have put me in a more fulfilling, lower-paying job. Now all my friends are in the same situation I am in and it is very hard to break free of that and start all over. And yes, it would be completely starting all over as I could not maintain my life in Manhattan with the people I know now without the money I make now.

 

[Cas Ruffin]

Originally Posted by Flambeur

I don't know if it's just me, but it seems like too many people (especially younger people) today have an expectation of easy work, huge rewards, comfort, etc.

You know, the typical "I am absolutely entitled to make money and have a brilliant career, but I only want to work thirty hours a week, take two months of vacation every year, and have tons of personal time to pursue my true passion of saving homosexual environmentalist hipster whales of the southern seas."

Whatever happened to hard work, ambition, understanding that you need to pay your dues, and all those other good things? Let's talk about it.

I think it's the sense of entitlement that created the financial crisis. But as far as hard work and paying your dues, I think there's just so many messages in the media telling young folks that that's not what ppl do anymore to be successful.

 

[thekunk07]

all the recent grads who work for me have a serious sense of entitlement and are lazy as ****.

Originally Posted by Flambeur

I think students get caught up in expectations and rumors. They hear things about long hours in finance or accounting, hear some people bash it, and buy into it. Next thing you know, you have someone who has no chance of ever making it anyway proclaiming that they would never want a certain type of a job because it requires long hours, selling your soul to the devil, etc.

P.S. Don't get me started on the start-up bullshit. It's fine to have ambitions and all, but the whole "I have no experience, money, or contacts, but I believe that I have what it takes to start a worthy, successful business" thing is REALLY annoying and stupid. And unfortunately I know this firsthand.

 

[gdl203]

See kwilk's post of yesterday for a counter-balance to this.

 

[philosophe]

Originally Posted by millionaire75

My wife is a teacher and her old school she worked at was just as you described. She is much happier now at her new school.

I work at one of the large investment banks and we were given a handout before the summer interns arrived saying that we need to treat them differently because this generation expects more, wants to be challenged, etc. I almost vomited on the handout.

As a professor, I get similar advice about this generation of students. It's such a joy.

The good news is that there are plenty of students who have the work ethic and drive to succeed. I am a humanities professor and often find that the science and engineering majors do very well in my courses. The reason? They know how to work hard and think clearly.

The worst students? Business majors, with a close second for communications majors.

 

[Cas Ruffin]

Originally Posted by philosophe

As a professor, I get similar advice about this generation of students. It's such a joy.

The good news is that there are plenty of students who have the work ethic and drive to succeed. I am a humanities professor and often find that the science and engineering majors do very well in my courses. The reason? They know how to work hard and think clearly.

The worst students? Business majors, with a close second for communications majors.

I think it's because business majors and communications majors (or any inexplicable popular major) have no idea what they want to do with their life, so they figure that above all else, they have to make money. So they invest all their energy in being the perfect job hunter (polished resume, great interview skills) down. But that doesn't necessarily make for the most motivated workers.

You can get the image down, but it doesn't replace hard work.

 

[Pennglock]

I hear you Metro. It sounds like you and I are in very similar situations.