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Borrelli v. kiton

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by JErwin, Jun 1, 2004.

  1. brescd01

    brescd01 Well-Known Member

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    First of all, I was comparing high end RTW to bespoke. If I wanted a suit that cost less than 1000 dollars, of course I would have to be satisfied with RTW. And for that price, RTW sounds like a better deal.

    Second of all, I find hilarious (sort of) that whatever view I express, whether RTW is better (shoes) or bespoke is better (suits), someone thinks I am arrogant for having an opinion. Maybe I think YOU are arrogant for putting me down. BTW, I have very little respect for opinions that are couched ad hominem. There is also irony in that I questioned 10,000 dollar shoes, and was hammered for that, and now you hammer me for urging a 2500 dollar expenditure over a 1500 dollar expenditure. I enjoy these discussions, but not when they are personalized.
     
  2. kalra2411

    kalra2411 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps you ability at reading is poor. I really don't think anyone put you down, they were simply giving their own point of view.
     
  3. matadorpoeta

    matadorpoeta Well-Known Member

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    it depends on whether or not you are picky about styling and whether or not the golden fleece matches those requirements. for example, you won't find slanted pockets, one-button jackets, ticket pockets, or single breasted peak lapels at bb.

    brescod, no one was putting you down. they were only disagreeing with some of what you said.
     
  4. jcusey

    jcusey Well-Known Member

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    With the exception of Kalra's statement about your reading comprehension, I don't recall anything in this thread or the shoe thread that could possibly be construed as an ad hominem attack on you. You have a right to your opinions. You have a right to state your opinions as forcefully as you want to. You don't have a right for your opinions to be immune from criticism. I disagreed with what you posted in these two threads, and I have posted those disagreements. If you object to what I've written, address it.
    The point that I've made (aside from the fact that your accounting for costs is not necessarily accurate) is that it's really impossible to take two kinds of data about two different choices ($2500 bespoke vs. $1500 RTW or whatever) and be able to say reasonably which choice is a better option. Many other factors matter, and the weight each of those factors is ascribed will vary from person to person. This isn't strictly about money, and it's not at all about you personally.
     
  5. jcusey

    jcusey Well-Known Member

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    I would do a search for what others have posted about WW Chan here and on the Ask Andy board. If I recall correctly, one poster wrote that Chan's US visits are mostly geared to taking orders from existing clients, not measuring new ones. I have no personal experience, so take it for what it's worth.

    If it were me, based on what I've read about WW Chan, I would go with the Chan suit if fittings could be accomplished satisfactorily. The Martin Greenfield-made Golden Fleece suits aren't bad, and the Isaia-made ones are even better, if you like the silhouette that Brooks is going for. Everything I've read, however, would indicate that Chan is likely to do a better job for the same amount of money (again, assuming that the measuring and fitting can be done satisfactorily).
     
  6. BGW

    BGW Well-Known Member

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    JohnnyNorman: I corresponded with Chan over email and their rep said that it would be fine for me (a new customer) to be measured in DC. Clearly the main drawback to Chan is that measurement is being done in the US. Else, it would be a no brainer, right? I would go with Chan only if: a) After meeting and speaking with him/her, you feel confident about the qualifications of the person measuring you, OR b) you anticipate buying a large number of suits in that price range over the coming years. The risk of a Chan failure is made more palatable by the possibility for huge long term savings. This assumes you actually like the cut and make of the BBGF. I think you are savvy enough though to not buy a suit just on price/construction quality alone. ********* Dr. Bresch: It is unclear who you are even addressing with your last post. I will assume it was me because I characterized one of your statements as "a tad arrogant" (the horror&#33[​IMG]. As many here have indicated, that comment was not a personal attack but a description of the tone of one of your posts. I urge you to re-read my post. I did not "hammer" or even "question" you for purchasing a bespoke suit (or two;-)), but rather expressed excitement that I might soon be joining you amongst the ranks of the "bespoken". What I did question was your totalizing statements in a prior post that high end RTW was inferior to bespoke. For many people, this is not the case, as many posters here have pointed out. I see both of the criticisms you listed (shoes, suits) as consistent. You questioned why anyone would buy a high end RTW suit, and why anyone would buy a high end bespoke shoe. The similarity between these positions is that they both ignore the diversity of tastes and income that various men possess. You, have cast what is right for you (rtw shoes, bespoke suits) as right for everyone, while the more seasoned veterans of this board recognize that every individual must make their own decision about what form of clothing is best for themselves. This is what I was attempting to convey when I used the term "arrogant."
     
  7. kabert

    kabert Well-Known Member

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    Further to Jcusey and BGW, I think what they're saying is that -- and this has been expressed quite a few times on these boards -- bespoke does not always mean you're going to get exactly what you want. Your email suggested that it does. For many people (again, going by what a good number of people have said here and on AskAndy), it takes having several bespoke suits made, often by several different tailors, not to mention tens of thousands spent, before they get one that actually fits and looks the way they "want." In fact, I recall numerous people saying their first and sometimes second bespoke suits were disastrous experiences.... ("I asked the tailor to make me a suit and that's what he did.")
     
  8. johnnynorman3

    johnnynorman3 Well-Known Member

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    I don't like the Greenfield BB cuts all that much. But the Isaia/Cantarelli ones are actually really great -- much different than the Greenfields. I believe the one I have on hold for me was a Cantarelli made one, based on A. Harris's earlier post. It had a double vent, pick stitching on the lapels, a nice waist suppression, and a good button stance. Beautiful pants as well -- shallow pleats and a bit lower rise (which I like). I'm going to buy that one -- a black one that I'll make my wedding suit (I got an $860 gift card for $640 on Ebay; BB will also do the sleeve and pants tailoring for FREE. So, I feel I got a great suit at a great price).

    I went back to BB today and it's too bad because they don't have the Italian golden fleeces in very many styles -- mainly just solid gray, black, and blue. Maybe I'll pick one up in dark grey, but I think I trust Chan enough to take the plunge.
     
  9. Alias

    Alias Well-Known Member

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    The Internet sucks, Mr. Bresch, because whatever you say can be misunderstood by anyone else, and anything they say can be misunderstood by you.

    There seems to be a consistent line of logic within this thread:

    Bespoke can be better than RTW, but it requires more time, energy, and effort from you.

    Top-tier RTW construction is hard to match even by bespoke tailoring, in that these makers hire actual tailors that probably run their own bespoke businesses on the side.

    Now, I would have believed that this line of logic would apply, not only to bespoke suits, but also to bespoke shoes, but I dunno. It doesn't seem to. Of course, I wouldn't dream of spending more than $400 on a pair of clonkers that can easily see bad weather, angry animals, and jagged concrete.
     
  10. brescd01

    brescd01 Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I will write VERY SIMPLY: personal (ad hominem) remarks of any sort, BAD. Non-personal criticism of any sort, GOOD. Personal remarks made about someone "eponymous," by someone anonymous, WORSE. DON'T DO IT. It is the poison of any forum. You think it affects only me (and therefore you can call me sensitive), but it will make others think twice about posting, and eventually your lovely forum will DIE.
     
  11. A Harris

    A Harris Well-Known Member

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    Honestly David, I think that if anyone is personalizing this discussion, it is you. Chill out dude [​IMG]
     
  12. A Harris

    A Harris Well-Known Member

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    I too am a big Barbera fan. The suits they produced in the first couple of seasons after switching to Attolini fit me better than anything else on the RTW market. Not quite as much handwork as Kiton, Sartoria Attolini etc, but at that level, it is not going to matter to most anyone.
     
  13. A Harris

    A Harris Well-Known Member

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    The most important factor when deciding between RTW and bespoke? Where you live. In San Francisco for instance, there are no world class bespoke tailors with a local branch. And what about the millions of businessmen who live outside of New York/London/Paris/Milan/Naples etc. The only real option for them is RTW or MTM. I've seen the work of literally hundreds of 'local tailors' and in nearly every case the worksmanship was not up to the standards of top quality bespoke or RTW, not ANYWHERE near in most cases.

    How does the worksmanship of top quality bespoke compare to top quality RTW? Based purely on externally visible construction quality and finishing, many (though certainly not all) bespoke suits are inferior. That is to be expected, as the RTW companies have the handwork and finishing down to a science, and can consistently turn out garments finished to a very high standard. On the other hand, one big advantage of a top bespoke suit is that the canvas is tailored and shaped for the specific customer, and sewn by hand.
     
  14. dorian

    dorian Well-Known Member

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    Yes, apparently Barbera's current lines are being made at - if not by - Attolini's factory. And they fit and are cut eerily similar as well. But, who knows... It's one of those things that I am told by sales people (who are not going for the sale but simply chatting) and are difficult to corroborate. Another one is that Ralph Lauren has purchased St. Andrew's to integrate his Purple Label production line. Like I said, who knows... And, now, for something completely different.... Good Doctor, I truly believe I know you well enough from posts in AA starting in late April (maybe earlier) to say this: you personalize comments all too often and are overly concerned with others' opinions. Now, I hope this will not fire up a discussion of forum use, conduct, et cetera. Remember that people write in all sorts of different ways, and their methods of communication (tones, inflections, facial expressions and on and on) are difficult to discern across uniform, typed forum correspondence. I won't continue now... but I have a question for you: do you drive a car that is as pleasurable to drive as is speaking of and being measured for bespoke suits? I ask because driving, I find, to be an incredible experience - and, as a doctor (although I have forgotten of what - please do excuse) you can probably deduce. Forums are great - but expression in life away from a computer is maybe better. Â [​IMG] Â "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." Oscar Wilde
     
  15. brescd01

    brescd01 Well-Known Member

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    Dorien, I did not get the driving analogy. Also, so far as my being too concerned about others opinions, you cannot know unless you observed me day to day. I have accompllished a tremendous amount in terms of the renovation of my wardrobe, so despite my ATTENTIVENESS to people's opinions on this forum (I regard this as a conversation, not a soap box, and I have benefitted greatly from the contrary opinions expressed), at least I have not been frozen into inaction. Oops, did I show concern for another opinion?

    Andrew, I will try to chill. But I have seen at least one forum ruined by less than polite exchanges and ad hominem attacks, quite an influential one in fact, and I would hate to see that happen to AA or SF.

    Back to clothes: I agree with Andrew's point about location. I never thought coincidence that "Mark Grayson" located the perfect tailor across from his office. The whole long distance fitting thing (vis getting suits from visiting "great" tailors" works against inertia. I think it might work sometimes, but the odds are against it's working well.
     
  16. kalra2411

    kalra2411 Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry to be so blunt, but if anything it is people like you who damage the environment within the forum, with you lack of understanding of what people are trying to say. I can understand that it is impossible to convey true expression in writing, however if someone wanted to make a personal attack on you; they would more so go about it in such a fashion (note that the below does, in no way, reflect my personal opinion), Your ideas are entirely misconceived, you have no idea about anything, Made to Measure is not always better than Off the Rack. You are in America, you know nothing, America is the land of slobs, drink some beer why don't you. Do you want to watch more TV? You think you know how to dress well, but you just wear old man clothing, such as double-breasted suits, tassel shoes (of all insanities. ), and turn-ups. It is only because you are poor, and cannot afford Made to Measure, that you think it is superior. However, this is what I said, perhaps you ought to re-read it, and compare to the above:
    I also recommend that you do the same for the other posts by other members (which you thought were making personal insults toward yourself) (I.E. RE-READ THEM. )
     
  17. BGW

    BGW Well-Known Member

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    Dr. Bresch:

    I don't even understand at this point what the initial alleged ad hominem was. What exactly prompted your switch into Style Forum Defense Mode?
     
  18. imageWIS

    imageWIS Well-Known Member

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    kalra2411 Group: Members Location: Posts: 297 Joined: Aug. 2003 Posted: 15 June 2004, 1:52 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do not think that just because something claims to be fitted perfectly for you that it will be. This is namely due to the fact that they do not have as much experience, and hence the purpose of buying a off the rack suit. I would agree that a made to measure suit will, 90 % of the time, fit better than an off the rack suit. However, it sometimes can be the case that a made to measure suit will fit even better, especially with a few alterations. In addition, note that fact that fit is not the final word in a quality suit, and almost always a high end off the rack suit will be of a better construction and the fabric will be of a higher quality than a made to measure suit of the same price.
    I also recommend that you do the same for the other posts by other members (which you thought were making personal insults toward yourself) (I.E. RE-READ THEM. )
    Interestingly enough it was the tailors of England (nee Savile Row) that initiated double-breasted jackets and turn-ups (luckily I do not like tassel shoes, but to each his own). As well, the double-breasted jacket is more "˜stylish' and less of a classic than the single-breasted jacket. I personally do not consider it "˜old-man', a DB jacket with 6-4 buttons and a high gorge and well-peaked lapels will look quite dashing on the right man (read: slender). Jon. (And yes, I understood your point)
     
  19. fopkid

    fopkid Well-Known Member

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    a harris, you make an interesting point about the relative advantages of top rtw vs. top bespoke -- that the construction of top rtw will be better b/c the factory has really nailed it down while the fit of top bespoke will be better. to that end, one would conclude that a fully bespoke suit from an oxxford or kiton, which would benefit from both attributes, would be the nec plus ultra.
     
  20. BGW

    BGW Well-Known Member

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    fopkid brings up a good point. Does anyone know how bespoke is done at kiton? Once the pattern is made, does the suit get passed through the factory process, or is the suit made more or less by one tailor?

    How do the big Saville Row houses do things?

    I didn't even know Oxxford did full bespoke.
     

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