Belts - Alligator, Crocodile, Snake, Eel, Etc.

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by meaculpa

I think even more than just quality, there is a large difference in the type of belt that they make. Fleming makes more of a Western-style belt - just a straightforward strap with a buckle made out of good material, whereas Bea is an artisan, which is reflected in her work.

So it makes perfect sense that they would be worlds apart, but for what they attempt to accomplish, both are very good.
Well, you may be right about that. The two things that I didn't like about Flemings product were: 1. The stitching was done in a way that left larger, more visible holes. 2. More importantly, the edge dressing was not done nearly as nicely. Bea's look like they have just beeen wax polished over time while Fleming's look kind of gooped on. I use the Fleming's belt more with cords which goes along with your explanation. They also deliver in a much shorter time and are about half the price, so...

 

[Demeter]

Originally Posted by iammatt

Well, you may be right about that. The two things that I didn't like about Flemings product were:

1. The stitching was done in a way that left larger, more visible holes.
2. More importantly, the edge dressing was not done nearly as nicely. Bea's look like they have just beeen wax polished over time while Fleming's look kind of gooped on.

I use the Fleming's belt more with cords which goes along with your explanation. They also deliver in a much shorter time and are about half the price, so...

I guess the price is indicative, in the end.

Regarding the stitching and the edging... those are arts of their own. One of these days when I get a little bit more time, I'll post a photoessay in the same vein as the Bruno Magli restoration, but about edging and hand-stitching belts and small leather goods.

 

[RIDER]

RIDER: Fuscus is just a colour. It means 'brown' in Latin, although sometimes makers label their goods as Fuscus, so it ends up seeming like a species of its own.

Yes, I know, but technically 'Fuscus' is a sub-species of Caiman. As is 'Yacare' which is coming back on the market from farms in Brazil and Argentina.

I am looking at an invoice/CITES doc now where we listed a special order low vamp shoe, where we used a blue Fuscus piece as the plug, as 'Caiman c.c. Fuscus'. We also used some yellow 'Caiman c.c. Yacare' on another shoe. Country of Origin listing for 'fuscus' is Columbia while 'yacare' is Argentina. Of course, it might not be neccessary to list this...I really don't know.

Melanosuchus niger - Ecuadorian species, but regulation hasn't been established yet, so no one is tanning this one either.

I thought was still App. I

Crocodylus acutus - Cuban crocodile. Haven't ever seen this one in high-quality tans, either.
Crocodylus niloticus - probably 3/4 of the time, anything crocodile is made out of this species. Harvested all over Africa. The best tanneries usually work with this one. Those erreghe belts are niloticus, without fault.
Crocodylus porosus - Harvested in Oceania. Also used by good tanneries.

Never heard of 'acutus', but there is also available 'Johnstoni' from Australia and 'Novaeguineae' from Papau NG. Both are similiar to Porosus.

 

[JLibourel]

Some amplification to the foregoing posts about crocodilians:

Crocodylus acutus is not the Cuban crocodile, it is the American crocodile. I am somewhat surprised that it is not Appendix I. I believe they're pretty rare. The Cuban crocodile is Crocodylus rhombifer. It is very nearly extinct.

The black caiman (Melanosuchus niger), the largest predator in South America and found over much of the Amazon basin, was heavily depleted by hide hunting in the period 1950-1970. It is Appendix I everywhere except from Ecuador, where it is ranched commercially. Hides from there are Appendix II.

A similar situation exists for the broad-snouted caiman (latriostris), where it is Appendix I from everywhere except Argentina, where it is ranched commercially.

Caiman crocodylus fuscus is the northern subspecies of the common or spectacled caiman. It is still abundant. It is Appendix II and may be wild-harvested. Some researchers consider the northern population of fuscus to be a separate subspecies, c.c. chiapensis. Another subspecies is c.c. apaporiensis, found in a remote part of the Amazon basin. Don't think much is known about it.

Caiman yacare, formerly regarded as a subspecies of crocodylus, is now considered a separate species. It is Appendix II and may be wild-harvested.

The New Guinea crocodile is, as Ron mentions, being ranched in Papua New Guinea, so I expect we may see their hides in the trade. I believe the Johnston's crocodile is very abundant in the northern part of Australia.

I am somewhat surprised that ranched Siamese crocodile is not Appendix II. Although very rare in the wild, I believe they are ranched quite heavily. An unfortunate trend (from a conservation perspective) is that they are being hybridized extensively with porosus for better growth rates. I wonder if many of these hides aren't coming in as porosus.

As a matter of interest, there are a couple of dwarf caimans, Cuvier's and Schneider's, Paleosuchus palpebrosus and trigonatus, extensively distributed in northern South America, but their hides are extremely bony and of little value.

Hope this is of some interest.

 

[blizzack1]

Thanks Faded. I've been here for a few years though, just lurking mostly

I will look into your suggestions!

Cheers.

Originally Posted by Faded501s

Thanks NorCal! Exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

Also, welcome to the forum blizzack.

Until recently my closet only contained casual belts and a couple of "mixed use" black dress belts ala Kenneth Cole/Ralph Lauren...which are both actually pretty decent quality IMHO. Not BB, AE, JM, et al by any means, but served the purpose. The one thing I've learned about belts is that there really are (dramatic) differences in quality and the only way to really see them is in person.

As far as a source of quality exotics at an affordable price, my only recommendation would be to watch ebay. A good alligator/croc might normally run upwards to $200+ retail so finding something for $40 or so seems like a good deal. If interested, try these searches:

http://clothing.search-desc.ebay.com...Z1QQsofocusZbs

http://search-completed.ebay.com/sea...e=search&fgtp=

Regarding belts in general, you might also want to check this out:

http://www.styleforum.net/showthread...ghlight=kielty

 

[LabelKing]

Originally Posted by iammatt

I have belts from both of these and there is an immense difference in quality. I have never seen a belt that comes close to the quality of April in Paris, and the Fleming belt while OK is at least five steps below.

Have you tried Duret?

http://www.duret-paris.com/

Also, forum member caelte, makes custom precious metal belt buckles and also belts:

http://www.caelte.com/

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by LabelKing

Have you tried Duret?

http://www.duret-paris.com/

Also, forum member caelte, makes custom precious metal belt buckles and also belts:

http://www.caelte.com/
Not Duret, but I have a couple of Caelte belt buckles and they are really nice. They are engineered very well.

 

[aportnoy]

Not a fran of the exotics, belts or otherwise. I have a pair of Fenestrier gator oxfords that are gorgeous and never worn, same goes for my gator JM Weston loafers. Just too flashy.

Asprey vintages pieces like wallets and travel bags are extraordinary, though. I also have gator card case that another SFer was kind enough to give to me that is lovely.

 

[Faded501s]

Originally Posted by aportnoy

Not a fran of the exotics, belts or otherwise. I have a pair of Fenestrier gator oxfords that are gorgeous and never worn, same goes for my gator JM Weston loafers. Just too flashy.

Yes, I somewhat agree with what your saying (about the shoes anyway). Kind of a too 70's pimp or something, at least for dress. For clubbing I might could see some badazz gators on my feet.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by aportnoy

Not a fran of the exotics, belts or otherwise. I have a pair of Fenestrier gator oxfords that are gorgeous and never worn, same goes for my gator JM Weston loafers. Just too flashy.

Asprey vintages pieces like wallets and travel bags are extraordinary, though. I also have gator card case that another SFer was kind enough to give to me that is lovely.
I like alligator for belts. I think that it looks really nice in small doses especially if you are not talking black, and not talking shiney. Shoes are gross.

 

[Tomasso]

Originally Posted by iammatt

Shoes are gross.

I like croc loafers with a matte finish.

 

[Ivan Kipling]

^^

. . . but only on a long, narrowish foot.

 

[topbroker]

I like nicer crocodile shoes precisely because they are a little show-offy -- it's a flashy sales-guy type of thing.

But I also think that they can be quite elegant, and I've seen bankers and lawyers pull them off with panache.

 

[caelte]

I've have a few croc and aligator belts from different makers.

Flemings belts are very durable and they back up their product with assistance and speed. They lengthen, shorten, and have their own agate wheel.
Where their quality breaks down, as Matt said, is in the edge coating.
It's gotten to look like it's slopped on.
Their leather keepers, the belt loops, are stapled not stiched. No, no.

For photo shoots and just wearing around I now use Bill Julian.
His belts are really amazing. Highly detailed with the stuff I like in a belt, blocked keepers, perfect edges, invisible snaps, color matching tongue holes. They smell really great too. I know someone who uses the belts to scent their sock drawer.

I'm wearing one of Bill's belts now as my work belt. Super English bridle leather.
I love the squeak.
Same details as the most expensive belts.

Matt, stiched belts look crappy, no matter how small the holes are

 

[norcaltransplant]

Originally Posted by JLibourel

Some amplification to the foregoing posts about crocodilians:

Crocodylus acutus is not the Cuban crocodile, it is the American crocodile. I am somewhat surprised that it is not Appendix I. I believe they're pretty rare. The Cuban crocodile is Crocodylus rhombifer. It is very nearly extinct.

The black caiman (Melanosuchus niger), the largest predator in South America and found over much of the Amazon basin, was heavily depleted by hide hunting in the period 1950-1970. It is Appendix I everywhere except from Ecuador, where it is ranched commercially. Hides from there are Appendix II.

A similar situation exists for the broad-snouted caiman (latriostris), where it is Appendix I from everywhere except Argentina, where it is ranched commercially.

Caiman crocodylus fuscus is the northern subspecies of the common or spectacled caiman. It is still abundant. It is Appendix II and may be wild-harvested. Some researchers consider the northern population of fuscus to be a separate subspecies, c.c. chiapensis. Another subspecies is c.c. apaporiensis, found in a remote part of the Amazon basin. Don't think much is known about it.

Caiman yacare, formerly regarded as a subspecies of crocodylus, is now considered a separate species. It is Appendix II and may be wild-harvested.....

Thanks for all the information on everything crocodile and alligator. This is another reason why SF is a great place for learning.