I'm not getting sore - What am I doing wrong?

I usually try and seperate DL's and squats when I work out, too. They are hitting many of the same muscles, and if you're going heavy, one or the other might be all you need for the day. Personally, I try not to DL more than once every 10 days to 2 weeks. That works well for me. YMMV.

There is plenty wrong with doing them on the same day. They work very similar muscles, and once you start getting into heavier weights, blowing out those muscles doing one exercise and moving to the next is just an injury waiting to happen. You absolutely do not do volume like that on those exercises when lifting heavy unless you're juicing. The only way you would squat 5x5 and deadlift 5x5 on the same day is if you're doing lighter weights, in which case, there's probably a good reason why someone isn't gaining much mass.

Also, getting sore is a poor indicator that you're growing or that your workout was effective.

why, if I didn't already discount your opinion, I definitely do now.

Originally Posted by Eason

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Putting rubber bands on the rack is an interesting progression, he must have a lot of faith in you.

It is a bit of a trick backing off the rack, but it all depends on the tension.

Originally Posted by skunkworks

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You absolutely do not do volume like that on those exercises when lifting heavy unless you're juicing. The only way you would squat 5x5 and deadlift 5x5 on the same day is if you're doing lighter weights, in which case, there's probably a good reason why someone isn't gaining much mass.

I take it you must be able to deadlift 3 times your bodyweight and squat in excess of double the bodyweight. Or something along that line. Good for you.


But saying one absolutely must not do squat and DLs on the same day is just wrong, really. I ran into college football players here all the time (only div III, but a perennial top 15 school nonethess), and I know for a fact that their off-season routine calls for days in which both squat and deadlift, on top of benches and other things. They don't go for max every week, but none of them strictly do lighter weights or are on the juice for that matter.

Originally Posted by skunkworks

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There is plenty wrong with doing them on the same day. They work very similar muscles, and once you start getting into heavier weights, blowing out those muscles doing one exercise and moving to the next is just an injury waiting to happen. You absolutely do not do volume like that on those exercises when lifting heavy unless you're juicing. The only way you would squat 5x5 and deadlift 5x5 on the same day is if you're doing lighter weights, in which case, there's probably a good reason why someone isn't gaining much mass.

What the hell do steroids have to do with injuries from tired muscles? Do steroids magically make muscles not tired or something?

You don't even make sense...squats and deadlift on the same day are in lots of very effective and very safe training programs. Take the appropriate rest breaks and it's not a problem.

And I'm still wondering what steroids have to do with short-term muscle fatigue.

Since everyone else chimed in on the workout tips, I've got one for gaining weight:

Muscle Milk ready to drink

I know that it's the McDonalds of protein shakes, has all this sugar, too much fat, etc.

But you can buy a case of 24 of them for about $35. Each one has 250 calories and 22g of protein. They actually taste good, and they're easy to drink. Add two of them to what you're eating right now. That's 3500 extra calories per week - fairly clean ones at that - and enough to trigger some definite weight gain.

Originally Posted by Brian SD

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So I'm trying to put on some weight by the end of the year. There are a few problems I'm having:

I realize diet is a huge part of this but I'm having a really hard time finding a time and a place to put in more calories. I've been drinking some milk/protein mix (one pre-workout, one post-workout, one before bed on workout days) and eating mixed nuts on my breaks at work, but I'm such an ectomorph that I can't seem to be getting any improvements in terms of weight gain.

I'm awfully skinny and always have been. I have no idea my BF% but I assume it's pretty low, I can see muscle striations around my quads and biceps - all my fat is around my belly, but even that is pretty minuscule.

Anyway, the thing I noticed recently is that my muscles aren't getting sore at all and I feel like I'm not gaining/growing if I'm not getting sore, but I really don't know where to go next.

I've been blasting my legs with everything they've got at the local club, basically doing 40 minutes of leg exercises every two days, and about 10-15 minutes of upper body. I have some problems with my chest (costochondritis), so I can't do pectoral workouts, but I've still been noticing a little bit of muscle gain in that area, possibly due to increased growth hormone from the other stuff.

Anyway, my workout is as follows:

Squats 1x10, 2x8, 2x5
Leg Press 4x8
Leg extensions 3x8
Leg curls (?? not sure what it's called, its the one where you lie on your front side and pull your heels in) 3x8
Calf Raises - I start with 15 reps at 50 kilos and increase weight until I can only do 5 reps

then I do core and upper body, usually 10-15 pull-ups, maybe some military press or lat pulldown, and various core workouts until my abs can't take it anymore.

Oddly enough, except for my shoulders and back, I don't get any sore muscles anymore. My legs/gluts are hardly sore at all even if I can barely walk up the stairs out of the club after my workout, my calves are NEVER sore even though I work them to the bone, and my abs are never sore as well, under similar circumstances.

A guy who works at the club was trying to explain to me something about shocking my muscles (I think?) but his English is pretty bad and my Korean is non-existent, so communication is rough to say the least.

Anyone see some glaring mistake in what I'm doing here? I know it's not perfect, nor anywhere near it, but I feel like I have a pretty good full-body workout going on here and the part that I care about / work at the least (my shoulders/back) is the only part that gets sore. I wanted to split my workout so that I can separate leg workouts by 4 days instead of only 1 day, but 2 days after my workout I'm ready to hit the squats again, so I go at it till I can't do it anymore.

1. I am like you! I judge the efficacy of my workouts by my soreness!
But I realise that is not true.
If I do not rest or sleep enough, I dont feel sore but I will feel sore 1 day later after resting.

2. Your numbers on workout done means nothing to us. We cant decipher it.
What you need to do is train hard. Balls to the wall hard.
Pre-exahust, superset, triset the works!
I remember doing my incline leg press after a pre-exaust set of leg curls.
I was stuck at a sticking point but I pushed and the weights went up eventually.
I knew that will burn and it did for a few days.

If all else fails, do this:

Warm up legs, do some leg curls and do squats all the way.
Do 10 reps at a weight which allows you to do that with some difficulties.
Do 5 to 10 sets and see whether it will ache the day after.

2. Unless you are eating tree bark in North Korea, it should not make a difference.
Have a balanced meal. Eat more small meals a day. Eat meat with every meal.
If food gets bland, give yourself some comfort food once a week.
I defy you to tell me you wont gain weight/grow.

To the people at an intermediate weightlifting level, have you tried doing conventional deadlifts and squats, 5x5, at 80% of your 1RM, on the same day? It's nuts.

This is not about light or heavy in absolute terms. I'm sure DIII college guys squatting 250 and deadlifting 350 seems heavy, but to some of them, that might be 60% of their 1RM. I'm talking when you're doing a heavy, maximum effort day at 80% 1RM and up, there's no way it's a good idea to put squats and deadlifts on the same day.

But saying one absolutely must not do squat and DLs on the same day is just wrong, really

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To be more specific, I said it's wrong doing both when you're doing 5x5 and lifting heavy, and I still stand by that.

And I'm still wondering what steroids have to do with short-term muscle fatigue.

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I think you may have misread every single word in my post.

Originally Posted by skunkworks

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To the people at an intermediate weightlifting level, have you tried doing conventional deadlifts and squats, 5x5, at 80% of your 1RM, on the same day? It's nuts.

This is not about light or heavy in absolute terms. I'm sure DIII college guys squatting 250 and deadlifting 350 seems heavy, but to some of them, that might be 60% of their 1RM. I'm talking when you're doing a heavy, maximum effort day at 80% 1RM and up, there's no way it's a good idea to put squats and deadlifts on the same day.


To be more specific, I said it's wrong doing both when you're doing 5x5 and lifting heavy, and I still stand by that.



I think you may have misread every single word in my post.

You are right. IT IS NUTS!
Whenever I do deadlifts 2 days after squats, I feel the ache in my thighs at the starting position when my quads are parallel to the floor.
I know deadlifts affect the hams and squats the quads, but I still feel the ache..
Also, after strenous squats, I feel drained even if I rest 2 days to do back.
Hence I dont do back workout after legs. If I do, I do only bent rows and other stuff.

Man, I still cannot do a proper deadlift. My lower back gives up much quicker than the targeted muscles. I feel like I've got a lot of lower back strengthening to do before I can DL effectively. Am I wrong here? Should I be attempting to DL the same amount htat I squat (150-ish, I know its low but I'm weak) or start lower?

BTW, very helpful advice all around.

Some programs do deadlift and squat in the same program, but it doesn't work for me. I've been doing it for a bunch of years and I know what works for my body.

Mark Rippetoe, in Starting Strength, recommends the following workout ,"for novices, and in fact for many more advanced lifters":

Workout #1: Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift
Workout #2: Squat, Press, Power Clean

Week 1 : Day 1 - WO #1, Day 3 - WO #2, Day 5 - WO #1
Week 2 : Day 1 - WO #2, Day 3 - WO #1, Day 5 - WO #2
Repeat

However, while he has his lifters deadlift and squat on the same day, "the deadlift is hard enough, and is usually done after a lot of squating, such that one heavy set is usually sufficient".

As far as work sets, Rippetoe recommends: 3 sets of 5 reps for the Squat, Bench Press, Press, and the Power Clean. For the deadlift, he recommends 1 work set of 5 reps.

I would imagine what was meant by Skunkworks regarding steroids is that many people consider steroids to allow faster recovery. It's the reason many aging athletes take steroids. The muscle is a side effect; the goal of the steroid use is to allow them to recover quickly from hard workouts.

Originally Posted by skunkworks

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There is plenty wrong with doing them on the same day. They work very similar muscles, and once you start getting into heavier weights, blowing out those muscles doing one exercise and moving to the next is just an injury waiting to happen. You absolutely do not do volume like that on those exercises when lifting heavy unless you're juicing. The only way you would squat 5x5 and deadlift 5x5 on the same day is if you're doing lighter weights, in which case, there's probably a good reason why someone isn't gaining much mass.

Also, getting sore is a poor indicator that you're growing or that your workout was effective.

why, if I didn't already discount your opinion, I definitely do now.

Be glad you weren't around on days when I did 8x3 on clean and jerks, 8x3 on snatches, rested for a bit (5 or 10 minutes to hydrate), then finished up with some squats (usually front or overhead) 3x3, and 5x1 on deadlifts. I might take a jog after all that to cool down before stretching.

Here is something fun for you, check out the way a lot of olympic weightlifters train, particularly look at the methods employed by the Eastern Europeans.

Your body can do some amazing things if you let it. You just have to try.

On topic, my advice is to set some goals, then research who the best coaches are that get that stuff done, and read their books. Keep copious notes about all of your workouts, how you feel before and after the workouts, etc. The more data you have, the easier it is to see statistically what is making a difference and what is not. Good luck.

Originally Posted by Milhouse

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Be glad you weren't around on days when I did 8x3 on clean and jerks, 8x3 on snatches, rested for a bit (5 or 10 minutes to hydrate), then finished up with some squats (usually front or overhead) 3x3, and 5x1 on deadlifts. I might take a jog after all that to cool down before stretching. Here is something fun for you, check out the way a lot of olympic weightlifters train, particularly look at the methods employed by the Eastern Europeans. Your body can do some amazing things if you let it. You just have to try. On topic, my advice is to set some goals, then research who the best coaches are that get that stuff done, and read their books. Keep copious notes about all of your workouts, how you feel before and after the workouts, etc. The more data you have, the easier it is to see statistically what is making a difference and what is not. Good luck.
I honestly don't find that workout that unbelieveable. It's a very effective workout, but the volume is not super high. I'm 44 and I usually do similar workouts. I usually start with the snatch, move into the C&J, then squat, then deadlift. That way I'm working lighter to heavier and my back is plenty warmed up. However, I won't doubt that you probably used more weight than me! I did notice you only did heavy single deadlifts (and I'm sure it was enough!) That seems to be the argument here: whether or not it's good to do 5 X 5 of deadlifts after doing other heavy compound exercises. To quote Rippetoe: But since the deadlift involves more muscles and more weight than the other lifts, it is easier to overtrain and should not be trained using sets across. It is really easy to get really beat-up doing a lot of heavy deadlifts. One work set is usually quite sufficient to maintain improvement. There are many opinions/coaches who have opinions on this, but Rippetoe is pretty highly regarded. His coach was Bill Starr, who is a big name in USA weightlifting.

Have you tried this:

Originally Posted by fat bob

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And sometimes we would spend the night Just rolling about on a floor And I remember Even though it felt soft at the time I always used to wake up sore

BrianSD, your deadlift should be a bit higher than your squat, all things being equal. If your lower back is getting fried before you really get anything going in your hamstrings, you may want to try backing off 15-20% on the weight and bringing it back up 5-10 lbs. per workout. A form check would probably help as well.

FWIW most of my bitching earlier in the thread was more about the thought of doing 5x5 with squat/deads on the same day. I'm doing Rippetoe-style training at the moment and 3x5 of squats with 1x5 deads is plenty enough, and I think it would be superhuman to be able to sustain high effort over 5 sets of both squat and deadlift. Something like that, if you could get through it, would blow out your entire posterior chain and fry your CNS for the rest of the week unless you were on steroids.