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lapels never fit - Page 2

post #16 of 25
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Well, I'm not Manton, nor Machiavelli, nor even a philosophy scholar, but as I understand it, Machiavelli's major contribution was to introduce the idea of political *science*, as opposed to political *philosophy* (for example, the Republic of Plato) into the modern Western scholarly tradition.
This is a common view, but I believe it is wrong.  For Machiavelli, just as for Aristotle, there is no difference between philosophy and science.  The invention of "science" in the modern sense begins with Descartes and the invention of method.  And it still took another 200 years for a distinction between philosphy and science to take root.  Descartes thought his method would radically improve philosophy, not lead to a separation between philosophy and science.  Like Nick, he did not conceive of a difference.
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Of course, there is a general belief (among the Chinese anyway) that there any western philosophies were already discoursed at length among Chinese scholars a couple of thousand years previous.  Arrogant bastards.
The metaphysics of the ancient Greeks is pretty much the same as that of Confucius' Analects and the Bhagavad-Gita, so maybe the Chinese have a point.  But I think it's more accurate to say that since metaphysics is the same always and everywhere, smart people in different cultures and eras simply came to the same conclusions on their own.
post #17 of 25
Getting away from literature and philosophy and back to the duds, Christian, I have a very different body type from yours. I worked out intensely for many years, and although I don't have particularly broad shoulders, I have a chest that sticks out like the Great Hump of Africa. With practically every contemporary RTW suit coat or sport coat I've tried in recent years, I've had exactly the same problem you've had with the beastly lapels popping outward. It's not that my body has changed. Suits that I bought a few years ago are still a good fit, so I don't know what the problem is. Anyway, that's the major reason I am turning to W.W. Chan...with satisfaction I hope. Manton, I greatly respect your sartorial knowledge, but if I am not being too intrusive, is "Manton" your real name or did you assume it from the very famous late 18th, early 19th-century British gunmaker? They later relocated to India, and Manton of Calcutta was the premier gun store in the entire Raj into the 20th century.
post #18 of 25
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This is a common view, but I believe it is wrong.  For Machiavelli, just as for Aristotle, there is no difference between philosophy and science.  The invention of "science" in the modern sense begins with Descartes and the invention of method.  And it still took another 200 years for a distinction between philosphy and science to take root.  Descartes thought his method would radically improve philosophy, not lead to a separation between philosophy and science.  Like Nick, he did not conceive of a difference.
I agree with your facts, but must disagree with your conclusion.  That Machiavelli did not recognize his own historical contribution is not unusual, (neither did Descartes, as you point out), and does not take away from the historical fact that his works are markedly different from ancient political philosophy and perhaps the origins of modern political science, taking the emphasis from a discourse about normative government and into the empirical realm.   As for Nick being intelligent, isn't there an old insight about Machiavelli, that the Prince thought the way Machiavelli described him to think, but was much more circumspect than the author was. The Chinese comment was meant tongue in cheek. I have a Chinese background, and was just injoying my little joke.
post #19 of 25
The general cause of "bowed lapels" is one with as we say in our trade: "pigeon chested" or heavy breasts. Try a few different models and various makers to determine which fits you the best, then if the lapels still bow a little, a competent tailor can "work" the lapels in to allow them to fit closer to the chest. I would suggest made-to-measure to eleiminate this problem from the start, but make sure that an actual tailor measures you rather than a salesman, so they can make the correct changes to the pattern.
post #20 of 25
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Whenever I try on a suit, the lapel are always popping away from the chest even though everything else, like the shoulders, will fit. I'm one of those non-muscular guys, with no chest. Is this lapel thing something that I can just ignore and just get altered, or keep on looking for something with a better fit. I've tried different makers and sizes, and have had no luck so far.
Christian, I have seen what you descibe many times and the cause, primarily, is a chest cut too small. There are many men with, for example, a 40" chest, but with shoulders that belong to a 44" chest. In other words the coat fits around the chest, but is too small in the overarm measure. This causes the coat to pull away from the chest in the middle of the lapels. Whether this describes your body, or not, I can't tell without seeing you, but it really sounds to me as though the coat is too small in the chest area. A common fault I see with many ready-mades. So it's a width problem and not a length problem. If you start messing with the shoulder seams to correct this, especially if the shoulders, as you say, fit well, you will be jumping from the frying pan and into the fire, as the saying goes. There is a certain amount of "steadying" of the lapel that can be achieved, but this can look awful if not undertaken by a competent tailor. Try a larger jacket. If the lapels sit properly but the waist and seat are too big, then you will have hit on the reason. Good luck
post #21 of 25
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So it's a width problem and not a length problem.
Really? It would seem to me that if you narrowed the width of the coat, either at the side seams or the backseam, it would only cause the lapels to bow out more. I have seen this happen when being fitted for alterations. Once when I wanted more shape in a coat, the tailor (not you.) objected that this would throw off the balance and bow out the lapels. To show me, he pinned the coat, and he was right; that's exactly what happened. The coat in question drapes perfectly, and has terrific silhouette, and the lapels do not bow at all, but it is a little "roomy".
post #22 of 25
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(Len @ 17 Nov. 2004, 08:35) So it's a width problem and not a length problem.
Really?  It would seem to me that if you narrowed the width of the coat, either at the side seams or the backseam, it would only cause the lapels to bow out more.  I have seen this happen when being fitted for alterations.  Once when I wanted more shape in a coat, the tailor (not you.) objected that this would throw off the balance and bow out the lapels.  To show me, he pinned the coat, and he was right; that's exactly what happened.  The coat in question drapes perfectly, and has terrific silhouette, and the lapels do not bow at all, but it is a little "roomy".
You describe perfectly what I was attempting to say. It is a width problem because, somewhere, either in the chest, around the shoulders or across the back, the coat is too small thus pulling the coat open.
post #23 of 25
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It is a width problem because, somewhere, either in the chest, around the shoulders or across the back, the coat is too small thus pulling the coat open.
Duh, too small -- of course. When I read your post, my addled brain replaced "small" with "large." Need more sleep.
post #24 of 25
I've got a problem like this too since I'm skinny as well, and don't work out as well. So, for those of us without the money to go for MTM.... Wouldn't it still be better to get a suit where the shoulders fit, even if this meant that the chest area didn't fit? I thought that the shoulders was something an alteration tailor couldn't fix.
post #25 of 25
Yes, make sure the shoulders fit. If the shoulders don't fit, you won't even be able to move in the jacket, so worrying about whether it looks good is irrelevant.
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