MoneyWellSpent's Southern Trad Thread

[Gus]



I'm sure you're right. I've heard the white soles are more traditional, although I have no idea if this is true or not.

It is true. The white soles are the original Sperry Topsider color that every sailor and Prep school guy wore through the mid 70's until better designed brands of boat shoes came along and turned everything upside down in boating shoes. Until that time there was only one color sole (white) and one color of leather (brown), tan leather wasn't even an option until the later 70's early 80's followed by navy. Brown and gold soles weren't around until early 1980's.

 

[Caustic Man]

There are subtle differences in Southern vs. Mid-Atlantic vs. Northeast, but they revolve more around brands than deliberate expression.

I don't think this is true. I've lived in the west, northeast, southeast, midwest, and northwest and they all have their own peculiarities because of the unique realities of the place and culture in which they live. That this expresses itself in clothing is almost inevitable and has to do with much more than brands. Indeed, as many fashion historians have noted, even in places where the brands are very prominent (say, Brooks Brothers for instance) the mode of dress is still driven by the people who wear them. The recently mentioned Christian Chensvold goes into great depth in proving decisively that it was the expression of the wearers that determined what became popular sellers. Brooks Brothers attempted to introduce several items over the years that were never accepted on campus, and thus were soon dropped from shelves. This same process played out in the south at the same time, however, because the geographical area of the south is so large and far flung (especially compared to the relatively small area of New England) things developed in a much more diffuse manner. Even the fact that certain providers have termed themselves as "southern" is evidence that it is indeed a deliberate expression. Southern Tide and Southern Proper are not trying to sell a Southern Trad identity to a skeptical public, they are trying to cash in on a sense that was already there, which is another case of brands and providers responding to public demand rather than the other way around.

 

[smittycl]

Okay, definitely not Trad shoes in any way but I like them. Besides, ever spend a day on vacation (apart from the beach) or museum-hopping in boat shoes? Not fun.

 

[MoneyWellSpent]



I do hope to see some full lengths one day if you can!

Not quite a traditional full length, but this shows more...

The pants look off in color in the photo. As I said, they are a medium rich brown, in the milk chocolate range. The saturation of color may be discerned though.

 

[bourbonbasted]



Spoiler

I don't think this is true. I've lived in the west, northeast, southeast, midwest, and northwest and they all have their own peculiarities because of the unique realities of the place and culture in which they live. That this expresses itself in clothing is almost inevitable and has to do with much more than brands. Indeed, as many fashion historians have noted, even in places where the brands are very prominent (say, Brooks Brothers for instance) the mode of dress is still driven by the people who wear them. The recently mentioned Christian Chensvold goes into great depth in proving decisively that it was the expression of the wearers that determined what became popular sellers. Brooks Brothers attempted to introduce several items over the years that were never accepted on campus, and thus were soon dropped from shelves. This same process played out in the south at the same time, however, because the geographical area of the south is so large and far flung (especially compared to the relatively small area of New England) things developed in a much more diffuse manner. Even the fact that certain providers have termed themselves as "southern" is evidence that it is indeed a deliberate expression. Southern Tide and Southern Proper are not trying to sell a Southern Trad identity to a skeptical public, they are trying to cash in on a sense that was already there, which is another case of brands and providers responding to public demand rather than the other way around.

As I initially stated, my issue with this is that the "identity" of "Southern Trad" revolves around brands (vs. design or actual identity). The Southern Tides and Southern Propers of the world do indeed exist to take advantage of "Southern Pride," but aside from t-shirt designs I don't think you can say any of their clothing is in any way uniquely "Southern." And this argument holds less water as the formality scale increases. Southern guys don't have any special material, silhouette or detail that marks their take on Trad as unique to them (think Southern Italian vs. Northern Italian tailoring). They wear the same stuff as anyone in the Midwest or Northeast would.

What you're left with is, "It sure gets muggy down South, so dudes don't wear flannel." But to say there is a separate, discernible dress code that is uniquely Southern Trad? Wearing a polo shirt with a duck on it, that's made in the same factory in China as one with a pony doesn't allow for any deeper understanding. It's all the same clothes, just different tags.

Realistically the only piece of clothing that is an outlier is seersucker. But even that has been a staple of Northeast and well-to-do Midwest summers for generations. Simply put, there is no uniform or manner of dress that is objectively, uniquely Southern. It's just preppy Trad with new brands.

 

[Caustic Man]

 

[Gus]



96 yesterday so there was an intersection of Casual Friday and Southern Trad. Avert your eyes if you hate peach.

I like each item here but IMO together they are a bit much. White bucks are ideal with seersucker. Nice to see that yours are well worn. Pristine white bucks are like brand new jeans just begging to get broken in. Why not wear them with a solid color sock or no socks for more classic style?

 

[eagleman]

My saddle bucks today

 

[Caustic Man]

They wear the same stuff as anyone in the Midwest or Northeast would.

This seems to be the most important part of your argument so I will address this. I think so some degree you can make a good case for this because, as I mentioned early on, there is quite a lot of crossover between eastern trad clothing. This doesn't mean that they are the same, or that their identities are even largely indistinguishable. One of the things that I wanted to push early on is that when defining the differences between trads it is important to look at tendencies rather than stark differences. This doesn't mean that no stark differences exist, it just means that they exist in a particular context that is rarely found outside the geographical location.

Ok, so let me give an example. You mentioned seersucker and it is a perfect opportunity to look at how things are shared across borders. It is unknown who first introduced the fabric to the U.S. since both Brooks Brothers in the north, and Haspel in the south, claim credit. Whatever the case, we know that seersucker is popular both in the north and the south. The difference between the two is the context in which it was used. In the north, seersucker is mainly a one season fabric (obviously) and was generally unseen in the city. Not so in the south. This nearly year round usability seems to have lead southerners into pairing seersucker with everyday business appropriate ties and shoes. This isn't to say that they don't pair it with white bucks, spectators, and the like, of course. It simply means that the context and social meaning of the seersucker suit was different as well as the way in which it was used.

Let's take another example, FU trousers. Both northerners and southerners wear them, but again the use and social context differ. In the north they were primarily utilized for a very short time of the year and usually in the context of some kind of party or vacation and, again, almost unheard of in the city. This isn't the case in the south where they are not only seen in the city, but are relatively common in many areas in the evening, even at restaurants and evening entertainment. Southerners are also much more likely to pair a pastel colored shirt with FU trousers, a bridge to far for many northerners. Even your fits didn't go that far.

Keep in mind that I am talking about traditional uses of clothing, and the lines between geographical styles are blurring with every passing day due to social media, globalization, and big box marketing. Other than that, I have made extensive posts on the differences between the two trads. I'm not sure if there is something specific in those posts you would like to refute, but I welcome you to do so. Your original objection didn't really address any of my claims, but simply said that they were wrong. I'd welcome a more evidence based refutation if you'd care to.

 

[MoneyWellSpent]



In person it looks impeccable.

Suit, eh? That's not the first time I've gotten that feedback on this coat, and it confuses me every time. It is a blazer through and through. I haven't ever seen a suit made from a traditional blazer fabric like this. Sounds strange.

 

[MoneyWellSpent]

Looking at the photo again, I see that some of those details aren't visible. It has patch flap pockets, and brown horn buttons. It actually came with traditional brass buttons, but I replaced them. It is a quite open weave as well. Teminds me of what some call "basket weave."

 

[Caustic Man]

Don't get mw wrong, I think it works fine as an odd jacket, maybe tough to wear being northern lights, but meh. I just like suits in that color too!

 

[MoneyWellSpent]



Don't get mw wrong, I think it works fine as an odd jacket, maybe tough to wear being northern lights, but meh. I just like suits in that color too!

What do you mean by northern lights? That the coat is lighter than the trousers?

 

[smittycl]

Yup.

 

[MoneyWellSpent]

I actually find that this coat looks really nice with darker trousers, and pair it regularly with brown, olive, and navy cotton trousers. Hopefully I'm not kidding myself, but I think it looks great, provided that there is balance created by the tie and shirt to keep it from looking bottom heavy.