Clothes and Perception

Claghorn · Jan 27, 2015

I'm not adding any negative connotation to the association with power, mind you.

So where do you see the majority of our associations, specifically with what we are personally unfamiliar with (about clothing or otherwise), as coming from if not the media?

TradThrifter · Jan 27, 2015

You can add also Don Draper to the powerful figures list

In my eyes, odd coats give the impression of academic professor, private investigator, British countrymen or prep school student. Granted, it is usually OTR and ill fitting. You guys on style forum, with your perfectly tailored bespoke odd jackets, are a breed all to your own.

jmeb · Jan 27, 2015

in stitches said:
All the same, I dont think that translates to peoples mind the way you think it does. Perhaps some university would be kind enough to do an extensive study on the matter.

Claghorn said:
So where do you see the majority of our associations, specifically with what we are personally unfamiliar with (about clothing or otherwise), as coming from if not the media?

They come from all types of media and experiences.

I think a SFer reading group of Pierre Bourdieu's "Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgement of Taste" (at least its introductory chapter introducing the theory, if not the entire empirically extravagant chapters) would be quite fun, potentially funny. It focuses on this problem of how aesthetics's become associated with social class/professions to the point they appear so natural that we cannot even explain them. I do not believe it empirically dives into the clothing question (beyond using it as illustrative in some spaces), but I see no reason why it wouldn't follow the same logic of using clothing to symbolize which social group you are from or would like to join.

In fact, in light of his later work on the theory of practice, the very fact that we get dressed everyday for ourselves, and for others, may be a particularly good subject matter for testing his works.

in stitches · Jan 27, 2015

Claghorn said:
I'm not adding any negative connotation to the association with power, mind you.

So where do you see the majority of our associations, specifically with what we are personally unfamiliar with (about clothing or otherwise), as coming from if not the media?

This is odd, but I think you are entirely missing my point. What I am saying is that I do not think most people make any kind of associations about distinctions between suits at all. Not from the media, or anywhere else. It's not something that they are aware unless they are perhaps absolutely forced to think about it. That is what I perceive the reality to be.

Then again, I am sure some people fall in your category and some people fall in mine. But I would venture that most Americans fall in my category. An extensive study on the matter would be helpful.

Claghorn · Jan 27, 2015

Ah, right. I disagree, especially when we include unconscious distinctions (which are really more important). I'd say most Americans will make an unconscious distinction (regardless of any value judgments).

I'll peruse any literature on the subject.

upr_crust · Jan 27, 2015

macjedi said:
For good or bad, sometimes I think I'm more approachable in a odd jacket/trouser combo … friendlier looking. I try may hardest not to make eye contact , but people wanna talk to me. I think if I dressed more like uprcrust, people would be less likely to approach me. Maybe outta formality, but maybe outta fear. Uprcrust looks like a nice happy guy, so it works for him.

Appearances are deceiving - I'm a horrid person, simply horrid

.

But, more seriously, I am of an age and of a mien that works well (at least I think) with the very formal (and sometimes old-fashioned) attire that I tend to sport. Ironically, I have been told (certainly in these fora) that my coloring is more suited to lighter colored suits (cadet blues, mid greys) and earth tones, which I do wear as well, though not usually in the winter months. I can see how color and formality can give someone the appearance of importance (or aloofness), though that's not usually what I concentrate on when I'm dressed in navy or charcoal grey.

in stitches · Jan 27, 2015

Take this further, think about all the moronic celebrities who wear tuxedos everywhere. Or the crappy wardrobe advisers when the clothing in the movie is entirely off.

Overall, there is no real sense of consistency as to what clothing is worn where in movies TV and by celebrities in general. I find it very hard to think that people could really pick up on some actually correct order of formality in clothing based on what they see in the media.

europrep · Jan 27, 2015

This has been an interesting read. There is a lot of truth in what most people are saying here. Perception changes from country to country, state to state, work environment to work environment. You can't make a blanket statement that will hold true across the board. While Clags primary example is suits v. sport coats/trousers, the title of the thread is Clothes and Perception and there are so many other pieces of the outfits that influence people's perceptions. In my experience, people will have a stronger feeling towards pocket squares than suit v. sc/trouser. Most consider it to be dandy and/our douche.

Shoes also play a major role in outfits and perception. To the extent that I know more than one major executive that has told me they will not hire a person who does not show up for an interview with well shined shoes. While I think this is a bit extreme, you get the point regarding the value some place pieces of an outfit. It says a lot about a person. Personally, I think shoe choice and care can tell you more about a person than any other piece of their outfit.

Also, people mentioned dressing at work based on your level. I am strong believer in dressing for the position you want, not the one you have. This will not work in all environments, but it has been important in my experience.

Christopher Essex · Jan 27, 2015

I wonder how mainstream people would judge the formality of a person wearing a suit with no tie and pocket square versus someone wearing an odd jacket with a tie and pocket square.

Do the accessories strengthen the level of formality?

ps: This is my new favourite thread

jmeb · Jan 27, 2015

Christopher Essex said:
I wonder how mainstream people would judge the formality of a person wearing a suit with no tie and pocket square versus someone wearing an odd jacket with a tie and pocket square.

Do the accessories strengthen the level of formality?

ps: This is my new favourite thread

Can only give my opinion and what I *think* others think....

1. Ties always up the ante.
2. Smoother fabrics always up the ante of formality. (I think many people I've met in the US recognize this unconsciously. Even if they couldn't tell you *why* that tweed is less formal than worsted wool, or why a satin tie is more formal than a wool knit, they'd pick the smoother one as more formal.)
3. Pocket squares (except plainly folded white linen) show someone is trying. Usually I find this to look overdone / trying to hard and failing. SFers choices are better than 98% I've ever seen in public, and even then I wonder if I'd like them less if I saw them in person than on the interwebs.
4. Age matters. A lot. An older gentleman with bold pattern and colors I'm likely (as a 28-year-old) to look at more favorably than a youngster like myself.

vida · Jan 27, 2015

Academic2 said:
Just a quick anecdote on the topic of how others perceive us, and the social coding implicit in our apparel. Nothing profound here, but amusing to some, perhaps.

At this point in our history the ‘business suit’ is international—it’s sufficiently generic as to prompt no assumptions by the observer regarding the nationality of the wearer. I often travel in one, whether for work or pleasure, partly for that reason. Additionally, when travelling in a foreign country, a native who encounters you will, upon realizing you are a foreigner, immediately classify you as either a tourist or a businessman. In my experience you’re usually better off being classified as a business man, and that’s the assumption that will be made if you wear a suit.

Wearing a suit is also associated in the western psyche with trustworthiness—an association which predates the modern lounge suit, and has its origins in the rise of a capitalist economy in England; if nothing else it signals “I am not a mugger.” I get stopped on the street all the time and asked for directions or other information. Most telling are my experiences in Vienna, where I spent a fair number of my summers up until a few years ago. I’m fair-skinned and slender (of German descent on my father’s side), so if I’m wearing a suit most people seem to assume I’m Viennese, and in any event I don’t look at all like (and I hope I do not behave like) an American tourist. As I said, I get asked for directions and other information all the time (I took to grabbing extra free tourist maps at the airport so I could hand them out) but always, without exception from German speakers, never once from an American.

My proudest experience of being asked for directions happened in Dublin, however. It was about 10:30 in the morning and I’d just checked into my hotel on South Great Georges Street, having taken an overnight flight. I’d just stepped out of the hotel and paused to light a cigarette, when an Irishman approached me (a few seconds before I’d noticed him casting his eyes around, checking out the other pedestrians before approaching me. “Excuse me, sir. Can you tell me how to find a pub called ‘The Long Hall’?” As someone with an amateur interest in the Victorian and Edwardian pub I can’t tell you how delighted I was to be able to answer “I can do better than that. I’ll walk you there.”

Wouldn’t have happened if I’d not been wearing a suit.

Cheers,

Ac

Great story!

Academic2 · Jan 27, 2015

in stitches said:
[...]
Then again, I am sure some people fall in your category and some people fall in mine. But I would venture that most Americans fall in my category. An extensive study on the matter would be helpful.

I'll be happy to suggest it to my colleagues in the Claghorn Studies department, if you like.

Cheers,

Ac

cumulative · Jan 27, 2015

I appreciate stitches's post on the first page. He attaches great importance to visualizing the consequences of clothing choices.

Putting forth the distinct effort to see the likely positive and/or negative outcomes of clothing choices (e.g., shunning by the overall student body, but praise by a niche group), I'm sure makes for better decision making.

---

I have to agree with Claghorn in that I feel humans (likely because we are social animals) are generally quite adept at recognizing differences in appearance, including dress. And that a poor ability to verbalize the differences we recognize (some may overuse the word suit simply due to a lack of vocabulary in this area) doesn't mean we don't recognize and are not affected by those differences.

True story: Many years ago I worked at a PR firm. We could wear OCBDs with chinos any time except when meeting with clients. For client meetings, a conservative business dress suit was a must. One day, the boss invited everyone to his wedding. All the guys wore their best conservative business dress suit. I wore something that had been sitting in my closet--for fun I had asked a tailor to make me something with a "Thom Browne look" months prior.

Everyone could tell my suit looked different. I got a lot of compliments from the men and women of the office that day. They might have had trouble expressing what made my suit different from a conservative business dress suit, but they immediately knew there was a difference, and they also knew my suit looked more appropriate for the occasion than theirs (hence the compliments and vibe I got from them).

patrickBOOTH · Jan 27, 2015

**** me, there is a lot to read here. I will read and post. Eventually.

Claghorn · Jan 27, 2015

patrickBOOTH said:
**** me

Sweet, I figured I'd at least have to buy you dinner.

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