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The Bespoke Shoes Thread - Page 37

post #541 of 625
Thread Starter 








Cleverley whiskey crup.
post #542 of 625
Nice choice! Make sure to show us some pics after you work them in. I'd love to see how well a pair of bespoke shows works on the Creasing of whisky shell.
post #543 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrybrowne View Post






Cleverley whiskey crup.

Interesting fudge wheeling of the welt. I've never seen the fudging angled like that. It is generally perpendicular to the edge of the sole/welt, rather than angled as shown here. Definitely looks weird to my eye.

I've read somewhere that the square awl should be angled when stitching the outsole, so perhaps the angled fudge wheel helps the maker align the angle of the awl?
post #544 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post

Interesting fudge wheeling of the welt. I've never seen the fudging angled like that. It is generally perpendicular to the edge of the sole/welt, rather than angled as shown here. Definitely looks weird to my eye.

Perhaps it's pricked.
Quote:
I've read somewhere that the square awl should be angled when stitching the outsole, so perhaps the angled fudge wheel helps the maker align the angle of the awl?

That's a new one to me...any idea where you read that?
post #545 of 625
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post

Interesting fudge wheeling of the welt. I've never seen the fudging angled like that. It is generally perpendicular to the edge of the sole/welt, rather than angled as shown here. Definitely looks weird to my eye.

I've read somewhere that the square awl should be angled when stitching the outsole, so perhaps the angled fudge wheel helps the maker align the angle of the awl?

Interesting that you mention this- I never noticed this before! It looks like nearly all of my Cleverleys have this angling. Here are a few additional examples.





post #546 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post

Interesting fudge wheeling of the welt. I've never seen the fudging angled like that.

I have seen that before (in pictures), but only ever on Cleverley shoes.

It is possible that one of Cleverley's 'makers' uses this technique as his usual (or only occasional) trade mark.
post #547 of 625
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

I have seen that before (in pictures), but only ever on Cleverley shoes.

It is possible that one of Cleverley's 'makers' uses this technique as his usual (or only occasional) trade mark.

Don't see it on any of my other bespoke shoes;

Lobb St. James



Foster and Sons



Nicholas Templeman

post #548 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

I have seen that before (in pictures), but only ever on Cleverley shoes.

It is possible that one of Cleverley's 'makers' uses this technique as his usual (or only occasional) trade mark.

I am guessing he has a fudge wheel with angled teeth. I think it would be hard (impossible?) to use a typical fudge wheel to get this angle, as the wheel would need to keep running off the edge in order to achieve the angled grooves. Notice how the angles go from right to left on the left side of each of the Crup shoes? One one shoe (the left), the left side is the outside of the shoe, on the other (right) shoe the left side is the inside. One fudges the same direction on both shoes, so on the right shoe you go from outside to inside. ON the left shoe, you fudge from inside to outside. So, an angled fudge wheel will make the angles go the same direction on the corresponding sides of each shoe.
post #549 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Perhaps it's pricked.
I don't think so. If so, wouldn't you do it symmetrically? The consistency of the angle looks like a fudge wheel to me.
Quote:
That's a new one to me...any idea where you read that?
No, not sure. I'll see if I can figure it out. I think it has to do with making it easier for the stitches to run in a straight line. On the other hand, it might slightly weaken the seam, since you are rotating the holes and thereby slightly lessening the distance between them. Imagine rotating the awl 90 degrees, then you'd be really weakening (or even cutting through) the leather, but it would be easy to get the stitches to line up!
post #550 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

I have seen that before (in pictures), but only ever on Cleverley shoes.

It's quite possible that I've seen this previously on Jerry Browne's Cleverley shoes.

I just had a quick nose-around on Jun Kuwana's site and Istagram album, showing his forty or so Cleverley bespoke pairs and I cannot see any of his shoes to have the welt marked the very same way.

http://cobblersweb.style.coocan.jp/
https://www.instagram.com/not_fashion_but_style/

I presume, Cleverley works in a similar way then John Lobb (London): regular customers have their orders made by the same crafts-person as to ensure consistence (at least as long as the services of that particular outworker are still available to the firm).
post #551 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post

I don't think so. If so, wouldn't you do it symmetrically? The consistency of the angle looks like a fudge wheel to me.

You're probably right...I guess I've just never seen an angled fudge wheel before.
Quote:
No, not sure. I'll see if I can figure it out. I think it has to do with making it easier for the stitches to run in a straight line.

Not really, angling the awl makes the stitches "overlap" (or "offset' resulting in a rope-like effect) more consistently but whether the stitches run in a straight line is entirely in the hands of the maker. And overlap is, to a large extent, controlled by how each individual stitch is tightened.

You can see this if you experiment with various leather points on sewing machine needles. There are needle points that are shaped like this: ////, like this: \\\\, like this:- - - , and like this: |||| ("P" in illustration below). As well as, round point and tri-point ("tri"), and tri-tip ("SD") both of which make a triangular hole in the leather. Only the - - - ("S" below) guarantees that the stitches will line up without "overlapping." (Of course, these are sewing machine needle points but the same principles apply to hand stitching. The only difference being that the needle on a sewing machine is a little bit more likely to always pierce the leather exactly on the "line of stitching."



One of the defining characteristics of these points is their ability to produce a stitch that stands, more or less, proud of the surface...and a factor to consider when choosing a particular needle point, depending on what is wanted. A "narrow reverse twist" point, for instance, leaves the stitches flatter than ||| (can't remember the name of the point) but less so than - - - -

That was one of the fundamental reasons for pricking--it allowed you to push the stitches into line and avoid the ropelike effect. And that, in turn resulted in more of a "bead" that stood proud of the welt.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 5/29/16 at 8:44am
post #552 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post


It is possible that one of Cleverley's 'makers' uses this technique as his usual (or only occasional) trade mark.

Hmm...in post #545 it almost looks like the "doublets" in the broguing are angled as well.
post #553 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

You're probably right...I guess I've just never seen an angled fudge wheel before.


Not really, angling the awl makes the stitches "overlap" (or "offset' resulting in a rope-like effect) more consistently but whether the stitches run in a straight line is entirely in the hands of the maker. And overlap is, to a large extent, controlled by how each individual stitch is tightened.

You can see this if you experiment with various leather points on sewing machine needles. There are needle points that are shaped like this: ////, like this: \\\\, like this:- - - , and like this: |||| ("P" in illustration below). As well as, round point and tri-point ("tri"), and tri-tip ("SD") both of which make a triangular hole in the leather. Only the - - - ("S" below) guarantees that the stitches will line up without "overlapping." (Of course, these are sewing machine needle points but the same principles apply to hand stitching. The only difference being that the needle on a sewing machine is a little bit more likely to always pierce the leather exactly on the "line of stitching."



One of the defining characteristics of these points is their ability to produce a stitch that stands, more or less, proud of the surface...and a factor to consider when choosing a particular needle point, depending on what is wanted. A "narrow reverse twist" point, for instance, leaves the stitches flatter than ||| (can't remember the name of the point) but less so than - - - -

That was one of the fundamental reasons for pricking--it allowed you to push the stitches into line and avoid the ropelike effect. And that, in turn resulted in more of a "bead" that stood proud of the welt.

edited for punctuation and clarity
If you compare the "P' stitch, which is most analogous to a square awl aligned perpendicular to the welt, to the "VR" stitch, which is most like an angled square awl, you can see the latter stitches lay in a straighter line, so perhaps there is something to it. Also, remember that we are dealing with a shoemaker's stitch, not a lockstitch, and the threads may be a lot tighter fit, so I'm not 100% sure the lay of the machine stitch is the best indication. Interesting to think about in any event.
post #554 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post

I've read somewhere that the square awl should be angled when stitching the outsole, so perhaps the angled fudge wheel helps the maker align the angle of the awl?

Aren't you thinking about a classic saddle stitch where one stitch sits piggy-back on top of the previous one?

There the awl (lance-shaped) is employed at an angle. You start-off by marking the stitches with a 'pricking iron' which leaves a slight indentation indicating each awl hole. Each one of these markings is already set at a 45 degree angle. Having the item secured in a 'clam' (or 'stitching pony') you poke the awl hole (one at a time) and then you stitch with a thread having a needle at either end. If done correctly, all your individual stitches are slanted, jumping somehow on top of the other.

Here is a pretty good tutorial showing the steps required in classic saddle stitching:



Anthony Delos, as does Lobb (Paris)), employs that same slanted stitch in the Norwegian stitch of his boot, but for the actual outsole the stitches are not slanted:

https://parisiangentleman.co.uk/2011/07/07/pg-exclusive-first-images-of-masterpiece-by-anthony-delos-best-artisan-in-france/
post #555 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post

If you compare the "P' stitch, which is most analogous to a square awl aligned perpendicular to the welt, to the "VR" stitch, which is most like an angled square awl, you can see the latter stitches lay in a straighter line, so perhaps there is something to it. Also, remember that we are dealing with a shoemaker's stitch, not a lockstitch, and the threads may be a lot tighter fit, so I'm not 100% sure the lay of the machine stitch is the best indication. Interesting to think about in any event.

Again, I'm not sure I would cal it "straighter" but let that go....the main difference, and the thing to remember, is that what we're really talking about is hand stitching. How much "stair-stepping" / overlapping occurs is a function of how the stitch is tightened. Something that cannot be replicated by machine, BTW. And with a hand stitched welt, the Tradition...or at least the one I learned...was that the stitches wanted to be proud--a "bead" is the ideal. IOW..
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