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Should paul hamm return the gold medal? - Page 2

post #16 of 25
Why is the gymnast to blame though? He was not responsible for the situation, and if anyone should be called on it, it should be the judges who directly made the mistake and the governing organizations that sanction the judges. They have "resolved" the issue by washing their hands of it; if you are unhappy with the resolution of the situation, you should turn your frustration to those parties charged with handling these issues. From a PR standpoint, it might make sense for Hamm to offer the medal back or at least call on the people who did err to correct the mistake. However, there's no reason that he has to get involved in a situation for which he was not responsible. It may seem like an honorable gesture were he to offer to return the medal, but it is not dishonorable if he does not. I think he's reacting overly defensively as well, but I can certainly see where he's coming from, seeing that people are trying to make him the scapegoat instead of blaming the judges, governing bodies, etc who actually are at fault.
post #17 of 25
I don't think he should return the medal, or give the medal to the korean. I think that in protest of this debacle, and the continued pressure to "do the right thing" he should publicly destroy the gold medal, thereby voiding the entire event. Why would he want the unfortunate label of *winner by error* which is what this is all coming to anyways. (incorrectly, unfortunately) I would just "wash my hands" of the whole thing if I were Paul Hamm. Give the USOC a taste of their own medicine, and just let all the viewers at home decide who won. (which is what we are obviously doing anyways) I hate medals to begin with, its totally against the original ideal of the olympic games. I would like to go back to the fifteen or so events, and have everyone compete in all events. Then crown an overall champion at the end of the games, and he gets a friggin olive wreath. Thats it. No gold medals for Softball. the end.
post #18 of 25
Thread Starter 
All quotes orginally posted by jcusey:
Quote:
... You can't know that because it's completely unknowable given the circumstances... The only way that that position makes any sense is if you believe that you can predict how the competition would have progressed had not the mistake been made.
You seem to forget one important thing: the high bar was the LAST ELEMENT of the meet. At that point the Korean was STILL in the LEAD. Any change in the marks would have been in the END of the high bar routine. Thus any change of marks would be irrelevant to the competition. How did they broadcast the event in the U.S? I watched it live - was it broadcast in the correct order? Again, any changes in the mark would have been at the END OF THE MEET, thus obviating any of your argument of "crystal ball" and "predictions".
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I don't really care how many others share your belief about how honor requires Hamm to give back the gold medal. It doesn't make that belief reasonable
Again, that is in YOUR opinion. In mine, your opinion (regarding this topic ) merits little consideration.
post #19 of 25
Quote:
You seem to forget one important thing: the high bar was the LAST ELEMENT of the meet. At that point the Korean was STILL in the LEAD. Any change in the marks would have been in the END of the high bar routine.
This is simply not correct. The event in dispute was the parallel bars, not the high bar. The parallel bars event was the fifth of six events, not the last. Any correction in score should have happened before the sixth event, not after. Giving back the medal now, as you and the FIG argue that Hamm should do, is de facto changing the score after the sixth event, which is fundamentally unfair. See this story on ESPN.
post #20 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage,29 Aug. 2004, 01:21
You seem to forget one important thing: the high bar was the LAST ELEMENT of the meet.  At that point the Korean was STILL in the LEAD.  Any change in the marks would have been in the END of the high bar routine.
This is simply not correct. The event in dispute was the parallel bars, not the high bar. The parallel bars event was the fifth of six events, not the last. Any correction in score should have happened before the sixth event, not after. Giving back the medal now, as you and the FIG argue that Hamm should do, is de facto changing the score after the sixth event, which is fundamentally unfair. See this story on ESPN.
Sorry, you're correct.  What I actually meant was before the LAST rotation, the Korean was still ahead. Would it have made a difference to Paul Hamm if he was X+0.1 points behind instead of X points behind when he was entering his last rotation? Also, Paul himself said: "I thought after the vault I cost myself any medal," said Hamm. "My thought was I should shoot for bronze. "I dug down deep and gave it everything I had on the parallel bars and high bar. "And after the high bar, my coach said 'All right Olympic champion', and I said 'what, no way'." BBC recap of the night's events edit: The high bar routine of his was his last, and up until that point he was behind.
post #21 of 25
Quote:
Sorry, you're correct. What I actually meant was before the LAST rotation, the Korean was still ahead. Would it have made a difference to Paul Hamm if he was X+0.1 points behind instead of X points behind when he was entering his last rotation?
This is why I'm saying that you're looking at your magical crystal ball. If things were different, all we know is that they wouldn't be the same. There is simply no way to know how the competitors would have reacted if the scores had been different going into the final event. 0.1 point is not a trivial difference in gymnastics, and the competitors know that.
post #22 of 25
Thread Starter 
So you really think that being an extra 0.1 point behind (i.e being X plus 0.1 points behind , instead of X points behind) may change things?
post #23 of 25
Quote:
So you really think that being an extra 0.1 point behind (i.e being X plus 0.1 points behind , instead of X points behind) may change things?
I have no idea, and neither do you, the IOC, the FIG, the South Korean team, or Paul Hamm. See David Hackett Fischer, Historians' Fallacies, pp. 15-21 (the fallacy of fictional questions), particularly note 23 on p. 16:
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23. There is an immense philosophical literature ont he subject of fictional question, or "counterfactual conditionals." The best discussion I have seen is in Nelson Goodman, Fact, Fiction, and Forecast, 2d ed. (Indianapolis, 1965), pp. 13-34, in which whe author emphatically declares that "a counterfactual by its nature can never be subjected to any direct empirical test by realizing its antecedent" (p. 4)...
post #24 of 25
Quote:
I don't understand why there's so much trouble in these subjective events - the 2002 Winter Olympics duet figure skating fiasco, and now whis? There's actually speculation about fixing scores.
No, he should not return the medal. One can go back and examine things ad infinitum, and more and more judging errors will probably be found. A decision was made that night - no protest. The decision should stand. This this the problem I have with *sports* that have subjective judging. Yes, gymnastics and synchronized swimming and figure skating require athleticism, are physically challenging, etc... but I don't think that they are really sports. In sports, there is a referee, to make sure that nobody breaks the rules. The end.
post #25 of 25
Quote:
This this the problem I have with *sports* that have subjective judging.  Yes, gymnastics and synchronized swimming and figure skating require athleticism, are physically challenging, etc... but I don't think that they are really sports.  In sports, there is a referee, to make sure that nobody breaks the rules.  The end.
Ernest Hemingway opined: "There are only three real sports; mountain climbing, motor racing, and bull fighting. All the rest are just games."   I guess that's why they call them the Olympic Games. I think I would place synchronized swimming, ping pong, and race walking squarely in the "games" category.
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