The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Brei

[Dino944]

Yes it answers it in a lot of ways. And yes my question was not meant to reference homages or fakes. It's funny you mention the Speedy and the Daytona. I mean I know dials and general aesthetics are different, but you have the El Primero and the Speedy predating the Daytona, and the watches are related. Does the Daytona get a pass on originality because they were developed roughly around the same time, because they used the El Primero movement, because their dial layout and general design is just aesthetically superior in your opinion?

Sorry to bother you with questions, but you possess significantly more knowledge and experience than I do on the subject of watches, and clearly have a different way of thinking about your watch purchases as well. I'm genuinely curious as to the way you think about them, hence the questions. I appreciate you taking the time to respond, it's truly interesting to read IMO.

No need to appologize. I'm always happy to chat about watches, particuarly if it help someone else. Often when someone questions my ideas or opinions it often helps me thinkg about my own collection terms of whether a watch still belongs in my collection or in which direction I may want my collection to move.

As for the Daytona, actually they predate the Zenith/Movado joint venture that led to the El Primero movement. I won't go through all the reference numbers and changes, but there are 3 distinct Daytona generations. The manual winds using a Valjoux 72 as a base, the first automatic Daytonas which used a movement based on the El Primero, and the current generation of Daytonas with in house movements. The manual wind Daytonas were released in roughly in 1962/63 (I may be off a year I don't have my reference matterials with me right now), and I believe the El Primero was released around 1969/1970. Although the Speedy Pro is from the 1950s, Rolex was making chronographs in the 1950s and 1960s (there are some from the late 50s early 60s that today are referred to as Pre-Daytonas) . In addition, most companies in those days were not making their own chronograph movements. Omega's movements in the Speedy used a Lemania base, Rolex used a Valjoux 72 as a base prior to the El Primero, VC has used F.Piguets and Lemanias, and Patek was using a Lemania base until just a few years ago. I don't have an issue with outsourced movements provided the are high quality movements that will not be found in less expensive and lesser quality watches.

As for Rolex's use of the El Primero movement, it was a very good movement as is. However, it wasn't just thrown into a Rolex case. Rolex made significant changes to the movement including changing the number of bph. It has been said there were close to 200 changes in the movement (I have a list of changes in my reference matterials), and it could largely be considered one of the last Rolex movements that was largely hand built/assembled because of all of the modifications that they made.

Also, keep in mind, until recently (maybe around the year 2000 or after) Zenith was not really distributed here in the US . Although not a seller of the same products, they were I believe limited in what they could do here as a result of bickering over the trademark name Zenith. Here in the US it was a brand that made TVs. Zenith made very good products but not all of them, even some of their El Primero equipped watches have stood the test of time in terms of looking as good today as they did years ago. Some are quite dated and a few from recent years were silly looking.

There are several great sporty vintage chronographs from the likes of Rolex, Heuer, Breguet, Omega, Breitling just to name a few. I'm not sure I could say one is more original than the others.

 

[DLJr]

Yes, I was aware of the changes to the movement Rolex made to the Primero movement, though not to the extent of that detailed list you have, but still aware. I didn't intend to make it sound like a throw in. I figured with something like sporty chronographs, with how close the time frame was with everything it would be tough to call one out as an originator and figured that would be the logical reason as to why one would not stand out as opposed to another for you. And when I brought up the Primero, I was referencing the Daytonas move to an automatic chrono as you detailed. I suppose you could go back to the independent push piece or the second push piece Breitling developed, but that's irrelevant really, as I was more curious as to your thought process which i think you did an excellent job detailing.

Your thought process, as always, is very well documented in your post and I appreciate seeing it spelled out. I thoroughly enjoy reading through them every time you post, even when differing on what we enjoy/prefer in certain watch aesthetics; your logic behind your preferences is something I truly enjoy reading.

Thanks!

 

[ChicagoRon]



There are several great sporty vintage chronographs from the likes of Rolex, Heuer, Breguet, Omega, Breitling just to name a few.  I'm not sure I could say one is more original than the others. 

I've been lurking this conversation for a while. In the interest of full disclosure, when I was much younger (like middle school) I proudly wore a fake rolex. It was a farce - nobody thought I could afford a real one, it was just more interesting to me than a swatch - something about the shadiness factor of how to get contraband merchandise. Today, despite spending time in Hong Kong and seeing some very decent fakes, I would not buy one.

I don't think you fully addressed the question DLJr was asking, in that post, although you might have hit it a little earlier. The question, as I understand it, is "does the term homage really only count brands that are relatively unknown and sold at a significantly lower price point?

So the Hamilton reversible example is a good one. Hamilton (especially pre-swatch group) has a reputation of its own as making fine entry-level watches. Should someone be scorned for buying one of their watches that happens to look like another brand's watch?

I'll give you my favorite example. In my opinion, the Omega Co-axial Aqua Terra Railmaster was a very obvious homage to the Explorer I. Big arabics at 12,3,6,9, similar hands, font, etc. Similar size, body shape, etc. Are Omega owners to be scorned for buying this watch? Or is it "okay" because they spent a lot of money? Or do you somehow distinguish this homage from the MarkII sub-mariner homage, and if so, what's the difference?

 

[no frills]

frilldog: if we're doing spring break wristies...here's my 210 remembering the Alamo last weekend...you'll notice I copied your "blurry wristwatch, focus on the background" photographic style....nothing like stitchy's shot LOL :

Keith T - thanks for the shout-out heh heh. I can't get my cheapo Blackberry camera to focus on BOTH the background AND the watch, it's frustrating. I have to content myself with posting pics that are well below the quality of the stuff Stitchy and dddrees tend to post. Ugh. Anyway, hope you had fun in your trip!

 

[no frills]

yes. when it comes to watches, dino is the man.

Yes, Dino944 is da bomb. Not in, like, a terrorist kind of bomb. The good kind of bomb. Like, Pam Anderson bomb. Kind of. But in a watch kind of way.

I'll stop here before I dig myself even deeper.

 

[Dino944]

Quote:
Hi DLJr, Thank you for the kind words about my posts. You are far too generous with your compliments...but I'll gladly accept them : ) I should note that originality is not the single criteria that I use in choosing a watch. I generally consider quality, design, my needs and originality. In a world where people "borrow" themes and designs, I find originalty refeshing and valuable. However, I don't try to figure out who developed the first date window, who first used a metal bracelet, or who originally used a large sweep hand for seconds. Originality might be a greater factor for me when I see similar designs and I think of where I have seen them previously. Admittedly, my orginal interest in the Daytona was based on its appearance. However, that was when I got my first Rolex catalog in the mid 1980s, at about the age of 10 or 11. You must also remember back in the 1980s, watch companies were not as transparent about the sources/suppliers of their parts and movements, and watch books, magazines and dedicated internet site really did not become available to collectors (or overly interested kids of all ages) until the early to mid 1990s. So back in the day unless you knew a watch maker there was very litle that one could easily learn about watches other than their options, appearance, and a few other very basic bits. It often took years of obtaining difficult to find magazines, watch books and catalogs to piece things together. Today, its much easier thanks to the internet, a stronger base of collectors, and watch companies recognizing that collectors want to know more than just color options and water resistance. Hopefully, when there are differences of opinions be it yours and mine, or anyone elses ...they make us think critically about our own opinions to see if they are valid, we learn, we gain some insight into our fellow friends/collectors and most importantly we still have fun. Best regards, Dino

 

[Dino944]

Quote:
Thanks Frills : )

 

[Dino944]

Quote:
Hi Ron, I think you are mistaken. If you review post 19019 DLJr specifically stated, "My question was not meant to reference homages or fakes." Personally, I have no interest in homages and place no value on them. I suppose they are not as bad a a fake actually writing Rolex or Panerai on the dial. Still they are a form of stealing a brand's/ person's hard work and identity, to make a profit. If you were a maker of distinctive watch, would you like it if I started selling an identical item but put my own name on it? Probably not. As for scorning people, I don't go up to people on the street and insult them based on their watches. If someone is wearing a fake I might think he is a phony trying to pull something over on people who might believe he is wearing "The real deal." I might even feel sorry for the person if they seem like the type of person that needs to put on a fascade to impress friends, family and coworkers. I'm just a stranger, they're wasting their efforts trying to impress me. Hell I shouldn't even matter to them. I don't think I've met anyone wearing an homage watch so I can't say much on them. Here on this forum I think of us as friends, sharing a common past time, exchanging ideas, information and opinions. I will admit I and blunt when it comes to my opinions, but what I share here is not any different than what I would tell some of my oldest and dearest friends when they ask my opinion on possible watch choices. As for your example, of Explorer 1 vs. Omega Aqua Terra. The Aqua Terra is well made but would not be my choice. I would want an Omega that looks like an Omega and has Omega DNA, rather than something that borrows key elements of an Explorer. I have owned an Explorer 1, and to me that is an iconic Rolex design. Many years ago I owned an Omega Seasmaster, and it just was not for me...it felt like a Submariner substitute. The only Omega that really interests me is the Speedy Pro. It has its own DNA. Other than when its burdened with being something it should not be with silly Snoopy dials or Paul Newman Rolex Daytona style dials, its a great watch. I would not scorn a person just because they bought a watch that is not my choice. If I knew him well enough I would congratulate him on his purchase and maybe ask to take a look at it. Although our choices may not be the same we share an interest in watches. As I have said homages are not for me. My mom grew up poor and raised us to work hard to achieve goals, to save for what we wanted, that it was better to purchase 1 very good quality than a lot of mediocre items, never to buy fakes they are for phonies, to provide for a rainy day, but not to be so stingy as to never enjoy the fruits of our labor, as we may not live long as we might hope to (sadly she passed away before my parents could retired and enjoy their golden years together). If I had to buy less expensive watches, I would choose things that define the brands they came from be it a Seiko, a Swatch, or a Mondaine. As for homages, I really don't see them as drastically different from fakes, they don't put the name of the brand modeled after on the dial... but its not an original idea and as far as I know they do not pay a percentage of their profits to the brands they models themselves after. People are free to buy anything they want real, homage, or fake, but my money will only go to watches that IMHO are a good representation of their respective brands. Best regards, Dino

 

[apropos]

 

[apropos]



There are several great sporty vintage chronographs from the likes of Rolex, Heuer, Breguet, Omega, Breitling just to name a few.  I'm not sure I could say one is more original than the others. 

This reminds me - at some stage in the past I seriously considered getting a 60s era chronograph. There are of course many candidates out there, but the vast majority are too small (<34/35mm).

Here are some I shortlisted, all with diameters 36-39mm. Maybe it will help someone else here hankering after a bit of vintage love.

Zenith 156

Lemania 15CHT

Breitling Top Time

Heuer Carrer 45 Dato

Zenith A386

Longines 30CH

 

[DLJr]

I've always wanted to love the Zenith vintage Chronos but it never happened. If I ever go Breitling, it will certainly be a vintage Chrono.

Thanks for the pics.

 

[Flake]

Apropos
Love your taste in vintage cronos.

 

[Flake]

Starting to feel like a real Spring here. F-series 170 for Saturday.

 

[rnguy001]

Waiting in line at the bank of all things.

 

[apropos]



Apropos
Love your taste in vintage cronos.

Well, I never did end up getting one!

I came really close once with the Lemania monopusher but the seller was a bit of a twit and the deal fell through.

Every once in a while I will get a hankering for the Zenith 156 in pink gold, but then I remember its 10% of a Lange 1 and suddenly it doesn't look so attractive anymore...