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can you tell by this pic if it is goodyear or hand welted?

post #1 of 50
8/12/12 at 12:16am
Thread Starter 


the reason i ask is because i was told that this is a handsewn goodyear welt construction but ive read here that that's an oxymoron as goodyear welt uses machines to sew on the sole and handsewing shoes shouldnt.
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post #2 of 50
8/12/12 at 1:13am
Charles Goodyear junior is the man who got the patent for a mechanized method of shoe production copying the hand-method of welting. So, strictly speaking, 'Goodyear welted' (as opposed to 'hand-welted' or just 'welted') refers to a production method employing machinery based on Goodyear's patent.

Nevertheless, in some countries (Italy in particular) the term 'Goodyear-welt' is used interchangeable for the hand as well as the machine method.
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post #3 of 50
8/12/12 at 6:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

Charles Goodyear junior is the man who got the patent for a mechanized method of shoe production copying the hand-method of welting. So, strictly speaking, 'Goodyear welted' (as opposed to 'hand-welted' or just 'welted') refers to a production method employing machinery based on Goodyear's patent.
Nevertheless, in some countries (Italy in particular) the term 'Goodyear-welt' is used interchangeable for the hand as well as the machine method.

 

Wrong.

 

Goodyear welt refers to the type of stitching used to attach the leather to the inner sole.

1000

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post #4 of 50
8/12/12 at 6:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnnamedPlayer View Post

Wrong.

Goodyear welt refers to the type of stitching used to attach the leather to the inner sole.

Actually, Bengal is correct.
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post #5 of 50
8/12/12 at 6:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnnamedPlayer View Post

Wrong.

Goodyear welt refers to the type of stitching used to attach the leather to the inner sole.

Actually, You are WRONG.

Goodyear welt is simply the term for a machine-applied welt.

Before Mr. Goodyear invented the machine this step was done by hand.
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post #6 of 50
8/12/12 at 6:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee_44106 View Post


Actually, You are WRONG.
Goodyear welt is simply the term for a machine-applied welt.
Before Mr. Goodyear invented the machine this step was done by hand.

 

Actually you are wrong.

 

This could go on for a while.

 

The Goodyear welt process is the traditional method for the manufacture of mens dress shoes, taking its name from the inventor who devised the original machine to replace the earlier completely hand sewn method. The benefit of a dress shoe which is made using the Goodyear welt construction is that the shoe can be resoled repeatedly, giving shoe a lifespan of years, sometimes even decades. Some claims towards added ventilation have been made as well, but there are no proven studies comparing the breathability of different shoe construction methods. Most probably, the materials play the largest part in the ventilation issue.

 

Are we arguing over the name "Goodyear" construction or the way in which the shoe is actually stitched?

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post #7 of 50
8/12/12 at 7:02am

Hi Bengal,

 

Does that mean GYW is equivalent to hand welting, just that it is done by machine/process patented by Mr. Goodyear?  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

Charles Goodyear junior is the man who got the patent for a mechanized method of shoe production copying the hand-method of welting. So, strictly speaking, 'Goodyear welted' (as opposed to 'hand-welted' or just 'welted') refers to a production method employing machinery based on Goodyear's patent.
Nevertheless, in some countries (Italy in particular) the term 'Goodyear-welt' is used interchangeable for the hand as well as the machine method.
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post #8 of 50
8/12/12 at 8:00am
Bengal-Stripe is correct.

Hand-welted construction is different both in technique and materials than Goodyear welted.

Handwelted is, in my opinion (with over four decades of hands-on experience) superior to Goodyear welted for the simple reason that it is based on a leather to leather connection. Whereas Goodyear welted, as it is implemented today, relies on glue to hold a canvas or linen "holdfast" to a typically thinner or inferior insole.

The Goodyear welted technique is named after Charles Goodyear...who invented the machine to do it...and was always intended to be implemented in a "factory" context and to replace the skill (and time) required to make a good handwelted shoe. In essence, it is meant to emulate a handwelted look and thereby fool the customer into thinking it is comparable to handwelted work.

There are a few MTO/bespoke makers who will do a facsimile of Goodyear welted construction if the customer is unwilling to pay for the step-up in quality of handwelted...but dern few.

And yes, there are people who insist on calling any welted shoe Goodyear welted...I suspect for the simple reason that welt is often commercially marketed in rolls such as would be sold to a manufacturer for Goodyear welted work, whereas a bespoke maker would cut his own as needed.

But using the term "Goodyear welted" in that fashion is not considered correct terminology (at least not among bona fide shoemakers) anymore than is calling a bespoke shoemaker a cobbler. IMO, such usage is ignorant for the simple reason that it is based on hearsay rather than experience.

PS...It is misleading to call Goodyear welted "Traditional". Shoemaking as a Trade can be traced back reliably several thousand years (and some would say as much as 10,000) and the techniques that culminated in the handwelted shoe evolved slowly and surely and were in use several hundred years ago. Whereas Goodyear welting dates to circa 1950 or thereabouts, and as mentioned, is restricted to the factory context. Hardly traditional in the larger scheme of things.

.
Edited by DWFII - 8/12/12 at 8:22am
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post #9 of 50
8/12/12 at 8:09am
Someone chooses to argue with Bengal AND DWF !!!!! lurker[1].gif
Edited by kev777 - 8/12/12 at 8:51am
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post #10 of 50
8/12/12 at 8:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kev777 View Post

Someone chooses to argue with Bengal AND DWF (or just DW)!!!!! lurker[1].gif

FTFY smile.gif
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post #11 of 50
8/12/12 at 11:04am
Thread Starter 
so is the pic goodyear or hand? lol
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post #12 of 50
8/12/12 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfais View Post

so is the pic goodyear or hand? lol

It's being done by hand isn't it? It also looks like the holdfast is cut/channeled from the insole.

Goodyear is a machine technique.
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post #13 of 50
8/12/12 at 5:59pm
Anybody find it strange that the welt and upper looks like it was pretrimmed (roughly) before the welt was finished being sewn?
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post #14 of 50
8/12/12 at 6:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon View Post

Anybody find it strange that the welt and upper looks like it was pretrimmed (roughly) before the welt was finished being sewn?

With that pseudo heel block acting as a stabilizer you really can't tell what the end of the welt looks like. On the other hand, it is not entirely out of the question that the vamp would be trimmed such that the channel would be visible and accessible to the maker. If it is lasted somewhat moist...maybe spritzed beforehand...it might not shift much if pre-trimmed. I'm like you though, I'd be a little nervous. I would need to have some tacks at strategic points...at least until I had welted past that area.

All that said, the upper may have been trimmed just a moment ago simply for the purposes of taking the photo.
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post #15 of 50
8/12/12 at 7:02pm

DWFII,

 

Thank you so much for the explanation.  I am just getting into this whole thing and it is rather fascinating.  I bought my first GYW shoe with the understanding that it was a superior form of shoe.  Of course it was superior to the glued together shoes I used to wear (I would like to think), but now am reading that these are different from and less well made than hand welted shoes (I have no experience or knowledge to really say understand or realize).

 

In any event, if I may ask a question, why does GYW machines choose to use inferior materials?  Can you not almost emulate hand welted if you use the GYW machines but the same materials that hand welting technique uses (am I making sense)?  Because it seems that while there may be differences in machine made vs. man made, you seem to focus more on the material used when it is machine made, vs. man made. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Bengal-Stripe is correct.
Hand-welted construction is different both in technique and materials than Goodyear welted.
Handwelted is, in my opinion (with over four decades of hands-on experience) superior to Goodyear welted for the simple reason that it is based on a leather to leather connection. Whereas Goodyear welted, as it is implemented today, relies on glue to hold a canvas or linen "holdfast" to a typically thinner or inferior insole.
The Goodyear welted technique is named after Charles Goodyear...who invented the machine to do it...and was always intended to be implemented in a "factory" context and to replace the skill (and time) required to make a good handwelted shoe. In essence, it is meant to emulate a handwelted look and thereby fool the customer into thinking it is comparable to handwelted work.
There are a few MTO/bespoke makers who will do a facsimile of Goodyear welted construction if the customer is unwilling to pay for the step-up in quality of handwelted...but dern few.
And yes, there are people who insist on calling any welted shoe Goodyear welted...I suspect for the simple reason that welt is often commercially marketed in rolls such as would be sold to a manufacturer for Goodyear welted work, whereas a bespoke maker would cut his own as needed.
But using the term "Goodyear welted" in that fashion is not considered correct terminology (at least not among bona fide shoemakers) anymore than is calling a bespoke shoemaker a cobbler. IMO, such usage is ignorant for the simple reason that it is based on hearsay rather than experience.
PS...It is misleading to call Goodyear welted "Traditional". Shoemaking as a Trade can be traced back reliably several thousand years (and some would say as much as 10,000) and the techniques that culminated in the handwelted shoe evolved slowly and surely and were in use several hundred years ago. Whereas Goodyear welting dates to circa 1950 or thereabouts, and as mentioned, is restricted to the factory context. Hardly traditional in the larger scheme of things.
.
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