Shaq Retires

Originally Posted by Fraiche

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Take each man in their prime season, Shaq would manhandle each and every one of them in the paint.

You're joking, right? Don't give me that "those guys didn't play against many big people" nonsense. Shaq didn't play against many big people either.

Wilt Chamberlain was only ten to twenty pounds lighter than Shaq in his prime, the same height and athletic enough to have been a collegiate high jumping champ. Also a better passer and defender.
Hakeem was noticeably better than Shaq when they faced off. Hakeem actually had a diverse array of moves.
I'll give you Russell, but barely. Russell was skinny, not much of a scorer, and gave up two inches to Shaq, so maybe Shaq would've outplayed him - on the offensive end certainly.
Kareem - I've always thought Kareem to be overrated. I have no basis for thinking that, I just always have. So, yeah, I think Shaq would've outplayed him, but I have no good argument for thinking that way.

...cant wait for him & Barkley to pair up for game commentary.

1) Kareem
2) Wilt
3) Shaq
4) Olajuwon
5) Robinson

I will entertain swapping Kareem/Wilt or Shaq/Hakeem, but otherwise, thats' the list.
With the exception of Wilt, no pre-merger center could could start in the 5-spot in today's NBA. Bill Russell was Dennis Rodman with a higher basketball IQ. That's not a knock. Dennis Rodman is a hall-of-famer.

Kareem over Wilt? Wilt is the most dominant team sport athlete not named Wayne Gretzky of the last century.

Originally Posted by StephenHero

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Kareem over Wilt? Wilt is the most dominant team sport athlete not named Wayne Gretzky of the last century.

Honestly, that one can go either way. I give Kareem the edge because he was a modern-era player and the sky-hook is the most unstoppable weapon in any sport.

If I had to pick a center [for an all-time best team], I would take Olajuwon. That leaves out Shaq, Patrick Ewing. It leaves out Wilt Chamberlain. It leaves out a lot of people. And the reason I would take Olajuwon is very simple: he is so versatile because of what he can give you from that position. It's not just his scoring, not just his rebounding or not just his blocked shots. People don't realize he was in the top seven in steals. He always made great decisions on the court. For all facets of the game, I have to give it to him.

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- Michael Jordan

Originally Posted by FLMountainMan

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He was no doubt a dominant player, but just imagine if he'd had a work ethic? Wilt worked out like a fiend when no one else did, Hakeem always tried to improve his game and footwork, Shaq just ate. He's a good guy, never made the headlines, but I still think of his career as underachieving.

Originally Posted by thekunk07

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a good charitable guy who should have averaged 40/20. end of story. his peak should have been his median.
I put him behind wilt, kareem, hakeem, russell and even mikan probably. at least we are getting to see the 2nd coming with dwight howard, an affable guy who will never be what he should be

This is what I've always thought. If Shaq had the Jordan/Kobe mindset, he would have had a 40/20 peak that lasted 5 years. The only thing that would have slowed him down would be refs that started calling the game differently for him. Then again, I think that Jordanesque mindset is as rare as Shaq's physical tools. Both are incredibly rare "talents."

Originally Posted by FLMountainMan

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You're joking, right? Don't give me that "those guys didn't play against many big people" nonsense. Shaq didn't play against many big people either.

Wilt Chamberlain was only ten to twenty pounds lighter than Shaq in his prime, the same height and athletic enough to have been a collegiate high jumping champ. Also a better passer and defender.
Hakeem was noticeably better than Shaq when they faced off. Hakeem actually had a diverse array of moves.
I'll give you Russell, but barely. Russell was skinny, not much of a scorer, and gave up two inches to Shaq, so maybe Shaq would've outplayed him - on the offensive end certainly.
Kareem - I've always thought Kareem to be overrated. I have no basis for thinking that, I just always have. So, yeah, I think Shaq would've outplayed him, but I have no good argument for thinking that way.

Kareem is underrated now because he played so long that we remember the aging golem playing out his career with Magic. And because he's so unlikeable. But in the 70's he was freaking unstoppable. The greatest pure scorer ever, and great great rebounder and shot blocker. He was a beast.

Originally Posted by Neo_Version 7

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- Michael Jordan

That's different from "Who is the greatest center of all time". His wondow of utter dominance was pretty small, and he led his Rockets to quite a few early playoff exits. Fact is, having Hakeem as the anchor of your team did not guarantee success for most of his career.

Man's a baller.

If Shaq had only worked on the court as hard as Mourning...........

Originally Posted by Neo_Version 7

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- Michael Jordan
Very interesting. Wonder if his opinion has anything to do with the urban legend that Portland offered Houston the #2 pick in the 1984 draft and Clyde Drexler in exchange for Ralph Sampson. If Houston made this trade, they would have selected Olajuwon #1 and Jordan #2. Can you imagine Olajuwon, Jordan, and Drexler playing together for 10-12 years of their prime?

wilt played in a different era. shaq could have been this era's wilt. that he wasn't is only due to his own lack of fire and discipline. this is not necessarily a criticism. guys like mj, kobe, even bird, are not particularly happy people in the larger sense. i can think of only one player in the last 20 years who has been able to be super-competitive and still have a real sense of joy ... magic.

Originally Posted by FLMountainMan

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You're joking, right? Don't give me that "those guys didn't play against many big people" nonsense. Shaq didn't play against many big people either.

Wilt Chamberlain was only ten to twenty pounds lighter than Shaq in his prime, the same height and athletic enough to have been a collegiate high jumping champ. Also a better passer and defender.
Hakeem was noticeably better than Shaq when they faced off. Hakeem actually had a diverse array of moves.
I'll give you Russell, but barely. Russell was skinny, not much of a scorer, and gave up two inches to Shaq, so maybe Shaq would've outplayed him - on the offensive end certainly.
Kareem - I've always thought Kareem to be overrated. I have no basis for thinking that, I just always have. So, yeah, I think Shaq would've outplayed him, but I have no good argument for thinking that way.

FYI fellas, 1995 was NOT Shaq's prime. Laker years was his prime.

FLMountainMan:
According to wiki, during Wilt's prime when he was destroying the record books, he was 250-275. It was only when he joined the Lakers did he exceed 300. Shaq started off at 300 lbs.

Hakeem was in his prime, Shaq was a newbie. Shaq in his Laker years is a different beast.

I actually disagree with you on Kareem. I think he would be the best matchup of all the centers listed because Kareem would not need to significantly alter his offensive strategy due to his hook shot.

For the most part, Shaq would force the other centers to be more of a jump shooter further out from the paint.

Originally Posted by StephenHero

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lol no.
Perhaps not Wilt, Russell and Hakeem, but he'd molest KAJ. The man's a beanpole.

Originally Posted by StephenHero

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I would round out my top ten with Moses Malone, Robinson, Mikan, Walton, and maybe Dwight Howard (a bit premature, but he'll probably be there). Ewing could be there too, but his playoff record isn't strong enough.

Good call on Malone. I'd forgotten about him.

Originally Posted by FLMountainMan

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I realize this is the conventional wisdom, but I consider Wilt just as skilled a passer. Wilt, in the latter half of his career, was forced to become a great passer due to rule changes, defensive adjustments, and media/team pressure. In fact, he remains the only center to ever lead the league in assists.

Still it's hard to compare the two.

Walton never played a lot of minutes, the highest minutes per game he achieved was 34.8. His highest assist per game average was 5.0.

Wilt, meanwhile, average sixteen seasons of 40+ minutes, with a career average of 45.8 minutes over sixteen years (Holy ****! This was before they had the trainers they do today). His highest assist per game average was 8.6, with three other seasons of 5.0+ assists.

Still, http://www.basketball-reference.com/...chambwi01.html and http://www.basketball-reference.com/...waltobi01.html allows us to compare average per thirty six minutes. I.e., if each player had played thirty six minutes they'd've collected these stats.

Walton's five best seasons, he had, per thirty-six minutes, assist averages of
5.2
5.4
4.7
4.5
3.9
Mean of 4.74

Wilt had
6.6
6.2
4.0
3.6
3.7
Mean of 4.82

Pretty damn close.

Nice analysis. I only got to watch Wilt for a season or two and never realized he was such a good passer.

Originally Posted by foodguy

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...
as for walton ... maybe the top 5 college centers ever? not the pros. hard to lionize someone who only had 3 seasons of more than 60 games. he's a great "could have been". shame too, a real character.

Right on. Walton had a much better career in college compared to the NBA. Although I can't stand him as an announcer (The latest play/player is the best he's ever seen), his writing is hilarious.

Originally Posted by Fraiche

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Take each man in their prime season, Shaq would manhandle each and every one of them in the paint.

No. Wilt would stand up well to anyone from any era. The man was a beast ahead of his time.

Originally Posted by 6up

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...cant wait for him & Barkley to pair up for game commentary.

I agree. It would be a non-stop laugh-fest. I love listening to Barkley.