Thinking about applying to a MA/PHD program

As a humanities academic, I urge you to re-read the posts from other academics. Grad school is usually a poverty-line existence, and English PhDs face a job market from hell.

If you can afford to spend more years in school for the joys of learning , grad school can be a great experience. Don't forget that not all of it is about the joys of learning (or even about learning), but you may really find immersing yourself in the field for 6-8 years is intrinsically worthwhile.

English undergrad and critical thinking. Maybe at one point in history, but English studies in the U.S. today are little more than a series of book clubs with course numbers ascending as text publication dates descend. As long as Sinclair Lewis is taught in lieu of Shakespeare and Chaucerian studies amount to 'he invented iambic pentameter!' nothing will really change. It's been a swan diving to its final song since Foucault was translated (or so I've discerned. His death predates my birth.)

Originally Posted by crazyquik

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Can you apply to the PhD program, get the MA from UVA, then use it as a back-door way to slide into UVA law? I think you probably can. This will be an easy way to get into a top 10 law school.

A lot of good law students, professors, and those getting judicial clerkships have MAs in English . . . because they actually know how to write.

However, going the PhD route with dreams of being a tweedy English professor at any decent school . . . is a long row to hoe.

Is it too late to take up history and try for a History PhD program, perhaps literary history in some specific field? Entry-level hiring at law schools is dominated by JD/PhDs at the moment; whether its a PhD in stats, economics, computer science, or history.

I would not enjoy pursuing history through the graduate level.

I guess I could back door my way into UVA law; but if I wanted to do that route, why wouldn't I just go ahead and apply? I would think I would be competitive to a top tier law school if I'm able to get into a top tier English PHD program... assuming a good LSAT score

The advantage of the MA/PHD program is that I can always just dip after I get the MA if something better presents itself.

Here is part 2 of that great article. Please read it 3 times. http://chronicle.com/article/Just-Dont-Go-Part-2/44786/ http://chronicle.com/article/Graduat...he-Huma/44846/ PS: Both plans are bad, unless you're in the top 5% of IQ.

Originally Posted by Reevolving

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Here is part 2 of that great article. Please read it 3 times.
http://chronicle.com/article/Just-Dont-Go-Part-2/44786/
http://chronicle.com/article/Graduat...he-Huma/44846/

PS: Both plans are bad, unless you're in the top 5% of IQ.

Hmm...you have it all figured out don't you...

I graduated with a PhD in Mining Engineering last year and these are a few points I have cobbled together based on my experience:

1. Don't do it purely for the title. Being recognised as a Dr is all well and good, but unless there are serious career advantages then its not worth the time.
2. Consider it from a financial point of view. Will you get a scholarship to cover basic living expenses? Will the PhD give you a good enough return on your investment? Will you earn significantly more than other positions just requiring an undergrad degree? I calculated 4-5 years worth of lost earnings and then did the research to calculate post PhD earnings and potential (like starting my own mining consultancy). For me, opening my own consultancy will potentially quadruple the salary I am on now.
3. If your undergraduate score isn't high enough, then you will most likely have to start in a masters program and then convince the university after 18 months that you are good enough to transfer to the PhD program.
4. Be prepared for a fair few problems with your supervisor(s), especially when they change the goal posts on you half way though.

In my case, I lost around $400k in lost earnings over the 4 years. I won't make it up immediately, but I'm looking at it long term with a view to open my own consultancy in around 10 years time, and thats when it will repay itself.

Edit - Don't know what its like where you are, but in Australia graduating with a PhD won't land you in a professor role. More like lecturer/senior lecturer. Over here, you only hit professor status when you have a substantial number of journal publications, research project reports and international recognition to your name. Even after all that work, a professor over here will be lucky to crack $140k a year and they will be around 45 when they do. Thats why most PhD graduates here avoid academia like the plague and go straight into private industry.

^ A Ph.D. in a STEM field is much less likely to ruin one's life.

I'm in a funded terminal area studies MA program, and before entering the program I intended to move on to a PhD in Political Science; but the outlook of the totally-unsustainable academy is so terrible that I couldn't recommend it to anyone, even a publishable undergrad (congrats, BTW). The numbers of PhDs on the market from Michigan, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and Stanford without jobs, and the numbers of third-, fourth-, and fifth-years at these schools preparing to enter the market in the next few years are unbelievable. The VAPs that are replacing tenure track positions are maybe the worst return-on-investment, jobwise, that there is in America. And this is in political science - a field whose only "pro" right now, I hear all the time, is that it's not English.

English departments are unfortunately dying off, and I don't know what a backup plan for an English PhD would be. If you literally cannot imagine doing anything else with your life, you should apply; otherwise, do whatever else you can imagine.

Originally Posted by Fuuma

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Hmm...you have it all figured out don't you...
Let's see.... of about 40 replies, a significant number say its a bad idea, and you somehow single out mine? Are you kidding me? Also, do you have any clue about the reality of supply/demand dynamics of both the lawyer and professor job market? You know, I would love to hear your counterpoint to my stance (a bad idea unless you're exceptionally bright) (ie: Both are a good idea, even if you're dumb/average/just above average)

Another humanities academic here. English departments will never die off. At most every school all students are required to take (or test out of) a whole year of English courses. And the English major is not dying off any faster than the other non-STEMM majors. What is dying off are tenure-track college teaching jobs in the humanities. Half the nation's tenured professors are 55 and older. As they retire, they are not getting replaced. Not in significant numbers. Read the most recent MLA jobs report. The main reasons for this are (a) the spending priorities & abilities of universities and colleges and (b) the continued demand for part-time teaching. People will work 6-10 hours a week for 15 weeks to make only $2K. Some will ***** about the pay and be resentful, but they come back as a crowd and ask for more. Deans and provosts and university presidents and administrators know this very well. It's true that you can't cobble together enough part-time teaching to make $40K a year but there is a lot of time off when you are working 30-32 weeks a year. And people enjoy teaching much more than, say, working at Target or whatever other part-time jobs are readily available to them in their area. And a good portion of part-time college teachers are people who are married to serious breadwinners. The job is not about income for them; it's more of a vocation or caling and an opportunity to earn some spending money and independence. Until the pool of people who are willing to teach college part-time dries up, there will be little to no job creation in full-time, well-paid, tenure-track college teaching. Not in non-STEMM fields. A better idea is the Ph.D. in math. Math departments struggle to find part-timers who are qualified to teach their courses, and a high percentage of current math Ph.D.s leave the country after they take the degree. There will be a crisis in Math by 2020; math Ph.D.s willing to live in the USA will get good jobs I think. It's hard to make that prediction for humanities Ph.D.s. Math is much more essential to the STEMM fields and much less popular with the spouses of lawyers. The other area of job growth at colleges will be in administrators. Work that was done by tenure-track faculty as service will be increasingly assigned to contract professionals. Part-time teachers do not do much committee work. Also note that grad school is never "free." There are lost earnings throughout your 20s but more important, no grad student stipend is going to cover all of your expenses. All of those good Ph.D. programs are in cool college towns or big cities with above-average living expenses. If you surveyed the top Ph.D. programs in the humanities you'd find that most 28-year-old Ph.D. candidates are not living on the stipend but a combination of the stipend and money from their parents. If your folks will subsidize the life for you, then you will be better able to compete. That or you have to be willing to subsidize itself with student loans. It's great work but seen from distance, there's no money in it. Saying you want to devote the next ten years of your life to making a good living as a college professor in the humanities is like saying you will do the same as a singer/songwriter. There's too many people willing to do it for low pay. A few people will make a good career of it but they are the exceptions.

Originally Posted by MasterOfReality

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Edit - Don't know what its like where you are, but in Australia graduating with a PhD won't land you in a professor role. More like lecturer/senior lecturer.

Just a difference in name.

US Assist Prof = Lecturer in the UK-based system
US Assoc. Prof = next step up
US Full Prof = Professor.

You get the idea. In this case, I think everyone is using "professor" in the generic sense of a college teacher/researcher with a tenure-track position.

Originally Posted by Dewey

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English departments will never die off. At most every school all students are required to take (or test out of) a whole year of English courses.

You make a number of good points, but I will respond to this one. I've taught at two schools that do not have required "English" courses. they both had freshman "core" courses that were taught by faculty from across the curriculum. In one case all freshmen take the same courses in the other they take different courses. And I think this sort of thing is gaining traction. So the need for English teachers could shrink.

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Originally Posted by Teger

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I would think I would be competitive to a top tier law school if I'm able to get into a top tier English PHD program... assuming a good LSAT score

This is really poor logic, which is a big part of your LSAT score. Better get studying.

Do you really need to go to school for whatever you're looking to learn about? Or are you just degree whoring?

Originally Posted by rdawson808

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I've taught at two schools that do not have required "English" courses. they both had freshman "core" courses that were taught by faculty from across the curriculum. In one case all freshmen take the same courses in the other they take different courses. And I think this sort of thing is gaining traction. So the need for English teachers could shrink.
This is true. Good point. There could be a trend in this direction for all I know. And I would add that you don't need a Ph.D. in English to teach the composition and literature courses that so many universities and colleges still require of all freshman. An MA is enough. At the big state schools you don't even need an MA. You just need to be enrolled in the MA/Ph.D. program to teach as a graduate student. It could be that English as a discipline -- literary criticism, theory, etc. -- is dying off as English departments are increasingly comprised of part-time instructors with MAs. Or Ph.D.s in composition. Or MFAs in creative writing. So the fact that there will likely always be work for writing teachers is not really good evidence that there will be continued demand for people with the Ph.d. in English. Maybe English is dying off --

Originally Posted by Reevolving

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Let's see.... of about 40 replies, a significant number say its a bad idea, and you somehow single out mine? Are you kidding me?
Also, do you have any clue about the reality of supply/demand dynamics of both the lawyer and professor job market?

You know, I would love to hear your counterpoint to my stance (a bad idea unless you're exceptionally bright)
(ie: Both are a good idea, even if you're dumb/average/just above average)

I don't see IQ as such a major determinant in where you end up, even in the professoral world. That is all...

Let's just say that, for example, having connections to the academic world (i.e. your parents are tenured or high-level admins), is much more useful.