New Raphael suit (not mine)

ramuman · Jan 11, 2010

Originally Posted by furo

But the drape. You honestly think the jacket on the left has a cleaner, better drape than the one on the right?

I don't think drape is what's being discussed here. Drape would be the intentional use of excess fabric used to create some complex curves or framing. Foo had a good comparison of the drape in his Rubinaccis versus another's in his old blog.

I think the main point of contention here is how clean (or not) the waist suppression is.

SkinnyGoomba · Jan 11, 2010

Originally Posted by furo

But the drape. You honestly think the jacket on the left has a cleaner, better drape than the one on the right?
You do realize that could just be shirt bunching up, right? Happened to me this AM, mostly because i don't wear skin-tight shirts.

whnay. · Jan 11, 2010

I think part of the problem with the critique I've seen here and elsewhere is that people have different expectations of what they want out of the process. Some seek, I believe, unrealistic perfection with something that, at the end of the day, is a man made piece of clothing. Others are seemingly obsessed with every minute detail as if we walk about town in sationary positions awaiting the sartorialist to take our photo (sadly many on the WWD thread subscribe to this mentailty - entourage in tow for the daily photo op). Lets remember that this is more art than electronics. I love "bespoke" for as much of the imperfections than anything else - its a reaction and a process that runs counter to nearly everything we see around us.

itsstillmatt · Jan 11, 2010

Originally Posted by whnay.

I think part of the problem with the critique I've seen here and elsewhere is that people have different expectations of what they want out of the process. Some seek, I believe, unrealistic perfection with something that, at the end of the day, is a man made piece of clothing. Others are seemingly obsessed with every minute detail as if we walk about town in sationary positions awaiting the sartorialist to take our photo (sadly many on the WWD thread subscribe to this mentailty - entourage in tow for the daily photo op). Lets remember that this is more art than electronics. I love "bespoke" for as much of the imperfections than anything else - its a reaction and a process that runs counter to nearly everything we see around us.
Yes.

furo · Jan 11, 2010

Originally Posted by ramuman

I think the main point of contention here is how clean (or not) the waist suppression is.

Yes I agree, and I'd also point out that the photo on the right has cleaner waist supression.

What I notice in the photo on the left is not only awkward jutting in at the waist, creating marks like > < ... but I also notice an issue with the quarters not laying smooth across ... which is why I use the term "drape." You don't see this issue w/ the photo on the right.

Mr. Moo · Jan 11, 2010

Originally Posted by whnay.

I think part of the problem with the critique I've seen here and elsewhere is that people have different expectations of what they want out of the process. Some seek, I believe, unrealistic perfection with something that, at the end of the day, is a man made piece of clothing. Others are seemingly obsessed with every minute detail as if we walk about town in sationary positions awaiting the sartorialist to take our photo (sadly many on the WWD thread subscribe to this mentailty - entourage in tow for the daily photo op). Lets remember that this is more art than electronics. I love "bespoke" for as much of the imperfections than anything else - its a reaction and a process that runs counter to nearly everything we see around us.
I agree; sadly, this forum is all about making mountains out of molehills when it comes to imperfections in everything from shoes to suits. One man's happiness with a new article of clothing is 10 invitations to other men to ridicule/nitpick. It's sad.

furo · Jan 11, 2010

Originally Posted by whnay.

I think part of the problem with the critique I've seen here and elsewhere is that people have different expectations of what they want out of the process. Some seek, I believe, unrealistic perfection with something that, at the end of the day, is a man made piece of clothing. Others are seemingly obsessed with every minute detail as if we walk about town in sationary positions awaiting the sartorialist to take our photo (sadly many on the WWD thread subscribe to this mentailty - entourage in tow for the daily photo op). Lets remember that this is more art than electronics. I love "bespoke" for as much of the imperfections than anything else - its a reaction and a process that runs counter to nearly everything we see around us.

Sure. But when foo does his red-lining of someone's bespoke suits, he is clearly focused on minute details that should not have been missed during the "process."

So the question is: how is it that foo can look at that side by side comparison, and fail to put a single red line in the photo on the left??

My answer: self-fulfilling prophecy

edmorel · Jan 11, 2010

can someone cliff notes this threak for me, thanks.

Slewfoot · Jan 11, 2010

Originally Posted by whnay.

I think part of the problem with the critique I've seen here and elsewhere is that people have different expectations of what they want out of the process. Some seek, I believe, unrealistic perfection with something that, at the end of the day, is a man made piece of clothing. Others are seemingly obsessed with every minute detail as if we walk about town in sationary positions awaiting the sartorialist to take our photo (sadly many on the WWD thread subscribe to this mentailty - entourage in tow for the daily photo op). Lets remember that this is more art than electronics. I love "bespoke" for as much of the imperfections than anything else - its a reaction and a process that runs counter to nearly everything we see around us.

Well said. That can pretty much put an end to every conversation about bespoke clothing.

SkinnyGoomba · Jan 11, 2010

Originally Posted by Mr. Moo

I agree; sadly, this forum is all about making mountains out of molehills when it comes to imperfections in everything from shoes to suits. One man's happiness with a new article of clothing is 10 invitations to other men to ridicule/nitpick. It's sad.

+1 horribly sad.

Manton · Jan 11, 2010

FWIW, here is my most recent Raphael coat:

It lacks the waist issue spotted by me and others, and denied by foof, on the coat in the OP.

SkinnyGoomba · Jan 11, 2010

Manton, fantastic coat.

FWIW, I took close notes on your conservative business dress poast. Good stuff, I've been tailoring my wardrobe to the conservative since.

TRINI · Jan 11, 2010

Originally Posted by Manton

FWIW, here is my most recent Raphael coat:

It lacks the waist issue spotted by me and others, and denied by foof, on the coat in the OP.

Nice coat.

Mr. Moo · Jan 11, 2010

Manton, really nice coat. Are you over 6'2"?

TheFoo · Jan 11, 2010

Originally Posted by whnay.

I think part of the problem with the critique I've seen here and elsewhere is that people have different expectations of what they want out of the process. Some seek, I believe, unrealistic perfection with something that, at the end of the day, is a man made piece of clothing. Others are seemingly obsessed with every minute detail as if we walk about town in sationary positions awaiting the sartorialist to take our photo (sadly many on the WWD thread subscribe to this mentailty - entourage in tow for the daily photo op). Lets remember that this is more art than electronics. I love "bespoke" for as much of the imperfections than anything else - its a reaction and a process that runs counter to nearly everything we see around us.

While I generally agree, I think it is also true that many see imperfections that aren't really imperfections. My guess is that this is widely the result of conflating stylistic preferences for technical issues. Not being tailors ourselves, I think the trick is to find ways of critiquing suits in many different styles consistently. For example, I don't like straight shoulder lines, but I don't think it's fair to call them a flaw. Rather, my eye immediately turns to how smoothly the shoulders transition from the collar, how well the sleeves drop, and whether the shoulders are wide enough to give the wearer a waist while not being so wide as to look ape-like. This may not be the right way to analyze fit, but at least it's clear what I'm looking at, and the analysis can be applied across the stylistic landscape.

New Raphael suit (not mine)

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