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what makes a good shoe and why they cost so much - Page 5

post #61 of 232
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
Thanks again to DWF for this great thread. I'd like to follow on the rubber-sole question: 1) Why does it hurt the structural integrity of the shoe to build in a rubber sole? Does the rubber respond differently to the stresses of wear over time, such that it and the interspersed leather develop differently and tend to pull apart? Or is it something else.
Go back to the the bit about all the components working together to make something greater than the sum of the parts but with no component being an expressly weak link. Leather has a temper...a feel and a structural and functional quality...that is like nothing else. When a shoe is made entirely of leather the pieces all work together in harmony so to speak. Rubber soles don't function, or conform, or age ,in the same way as leather does. I have seen, especially in poor quality shoes, where the rubber, as it ages and thins tends to pull apart--to spread. And in doing so it pulls the components of the shoe out of position. So...you have it right and probably said it better than I did.
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2) I have bum knees. My doctor strongly counsels rubber soles; but he is a doctor not a cordwainer. In your view can leather-soled shoes provide comparable shock absorption to rubber, and if so what might look for in RTW or ask for in bespoke to get closest to the shock absorbtion of rubber? (I aspire to bespoke but it's not happening soon on my budget).
No, leather will not absorb the stresses on your knees the way crepe soles will. But crepe is a very different animal than a Vibram dress sole, for instance. Of course crepe...even petro-chemical crepe...will wear faster than leather or Vibram/Dainite/Neolite, etc.. You'll have to stay on top of it or risk losing the shoe. Enough repairs or ruined shoes for lack of repair and bespoke might seem cheap. I am a bespoke maker. I think hand made shoes are almost the epitome of artisanal endeavour (personal opinion). But there is good, there is better, and there is best, and good...even better... quality shoes can be had in RTW. Don't get me wrong.
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Thanks again for sharing your insights. I have learned a ton from this thread.
You are very welcome.
post #62 of 232
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes Bourne View Post
What is a side channeled outsole?
A channel that is cut in from the edge or side of the outsole...I'm not certain that there is even, technically, a term for it, much less "side channeling" but that's what I call it. There was even a machine that did side channeling once upon a time. And numerous hand tools.
post #63 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
A channel that is cut in from the edge or side of the outsole...I'm not certain that there is even, technically, a term for it, much less "side channeling" but that's what I call it.

There was even a machine that did side channeling once upon a time. And numerous hand tools.

= Retro-future next-level shizz. Please do post a pic of this if you have one!
post #64 of 232
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes Bourne View Post
= Retro-future next-level shizz. Please do post a pic of this if you have one!
I have a hand tool...that I use to at least start the channel. But I don't have...don't know of...any photo of the machine--it was a bench-mounted machine, as I understand it.
post #65 of 232
Then perhaps you'll indulge us and take a pic of a side channel next time you cut/make one?
post #66 of 232
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes Bourne View Post
Then perhaps you'll indulge us and take a pic of a side channel next time you cut/make one?
Go back and look at the first page in this thread, I provided several links (on request) of my shoes and boots. The chukkas are side channeled and the semi-brogue derbies are side channeled. (The neo-Jacobite buckle shoes are machine stitched with the oft-hailed vertical channel....took all of five minutes to stitch the pair.) What do you need? A description of my technique? I am not particularly reticent about theses things as you might have noticed. And I can easily post a photo of the hand tool. And no disrespect intended (sincerely), but you don't know much about shoemakers or the Victorians who came up with endless variations of these ideas if you don't understand that combining the working end with a serrated drive roller and a crank to turn it would be child's play.
post #67 of 232
Will look at those pics as you suggested. Honestly, I don't think anyone here had even heard of the term side channeled until you mentionned it... with the possible exception of bengal-stripe. I was confused as I thought the term side channeled implied a contrast/difference with (vertical/top-bottom?) channeled.
post #68 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

When it becomes "disrespectful" to point out that certain processes, certain techniques, and certain outcomes are superior to other outcomes, etc....especially when logic and reasons for such assessments are provided and detailed...then the whole concept of quality becomes nearly incomprehensible if not ludicrous.

And what is "style" if not recognizing quality and hierarchies of quality?

I assume that was aimed at me?

Wishing for a constructive debate and continuity of this thread I have a question:

Based purely on hand made shoes, are there producers of hand made shoes that are using a stitched aloft construction which you're critical of?

From a personal perspective, if I commissioned a pair of hand made/bespoke shoes I would expect a channeled sole. And, until this thread emerged was not aware of the different 'types' or approaches to channeling, that a hand maker can offer (if skilled in the art of course).

As to my comment about being disrespectful to those that offer stitched aloft, that was how I perceived your statement towards those that offer that approach, hence my question above. I like many (if not the majority) do not own hand made or bespoke footwear, and yet are constantly reminded how wonderful and 'the best of the best' some RTW manufacturers are. Therefore it's natural to assume that an Edward Green or John Lobb channeled sole is equally as good as something that is hand made. Mainly due to the plethora of information (or over-information) on RTW and yet very little on hand made/bespoke. It is only through the contributions of those like you that enable us mere mortals to see the light through a different lens.
post #69 of 232
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groover View Post
I assume that was aimed at me?
Not specifically, but your remarks did stick with me.
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Based purely on hand made shoes, are there producers of hand made shoes that are using a stitched aloft construction which you're critical of?
Not entirely and I would never single them out any more than I would single out a manufacturer. I'm not offering a critique of makers just a perspective on what tradition and this maker considers quality. Some makers, myself included, offer, implicit or otherwise, the option to have machine stitched outsole or hand stitched outsole. Because of my boot business I have the machine, I can offer a customer a price break if such things as 11spi are not important to him.
Quote:
It is only through the contributions of those like you that enable us mere mortals to see the light through a different lens.
No worries...I apologize if it seemed personal.
post #70 of 232
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes Bourne View Post
Will look at those pics as you suggested. Honestly, I don't think anyone here had even heard of the term side channeled until you mentionned it... with the possible exception of bengal-stripe. I was confused as I thought the term side channeled implied a contrast/difference with (vertical/top-bottom?) channeled.
As I said, I use the term "side channeled" for lack of a better term. I am not surprised you haven't heard it before. What it comes down to is this...machines make a vertical channel (or they can) from the surface of the outsole; some bespoke makers cut a channel in at an angle from the surface of the outsole; some from the very edge of the outsole; and some, like myself, cut straight in from the edge or side of the outsole and peel that flap back. The machines (and even the hand tool that I have) that did it this way left a pretty thin "flap" of mostly equal substance. I vary this procedure by starting my edge cut about a millimeter below the surface of the outsole cutting inward about a millimeter, and then peeling that back enough that I can continue to cut (by hand and eye) at an angle, so that my stitches will end up about half way through the thickness of the outsole. When I finish stitching, I glue the flap down and when I trim and finish the edge the channel edge is camouflaged in the edge of the outsole and in the wires that result from edge finishing. Hope that helps...sorry for any confusion.
post #71 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
Not specifically, but your remarks did stick with me.


Not entirely and I would never single them out any more than I would single out a manufacturer. I'm not offering a critique of makers just a perspective on what tradition and this maker considers quality.

Some makers, myself included, offer, implicit or otherwise, the option to have machine stitched outsole or hand stitched outsole. Because of my boot business I have the machine, I can offer a customer a price break if such things as 11spi are not important to him.

No worries...I apologize if it seemed personal.

Nothing personal taken.

The problem as I see it, is that true hand made is (from my perspective) so rare these days that we're almost conditioned to accept factory made/RTW/mass prodcued (call it what you will). Hence my comment about the comparisons of stitched aloft/channeled, whereas it (wrongly on my part) was about comparing handmade vs factory made, which it would be disrespectful to the former to compare, no offence was meant. That's why I was curious to know if there are hand makers stitching their soles as described.

On another level, do you feel these skills will eventually die out?
post #72 of 232
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groover View Post
On another level, do you feel these skills will eventually die out?
Not if I can help it!! This is also my creation...with a lot of help from my friends.
post #73 of 232
Thanks for the link. Earlier this year I had the opportunity to tour a Northampton factory. I was shown a machine that cut the sole in preparation for a channeled sole, I'm fairly certain this piece of equipment is common amongst those in Northampton that offer a channeled sole, is this a piece of equipment you've seen/used?:
post #74 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxsartoria View Post
I'm sold.

Although I will say at age 47, having worn RTW shoes all my life, I am not yet crippled.


- B

Amazing things happen when you spread the wear over ~ 300 pairs of shoes.
post #75 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaogou View Post
Amazing things happen when you spread the wear over ~ 300 pairs of shoes.

That, and one of these:




- B
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