DEEP QUESTIONS Vol.3: Meaning in Work

Just asking to see where the majority of SFers stand on this philosophical issue. I ask this personally from a human perspective - not from an economic perspective. But you can answer any way you would like to.

Now I should point out that I work in consulting and have a degree in economics - in no way am I a hippy or ultra-liberal protester type. I also am not a follower of any particular religion. I am not aligned with any political party.

However, I believe that the majority of occupations are spiritually numbing and not beneficial to humanity (not society - society is a whole separate construct that is self-sustaining and not necessarily working towards what is best for its individuals).

The only thing the majority of companies produce are services or products for consumption that create shareholder wealth. Shareholder wealth in itself is not an end. Do increased corporate profits, higher GDP, and higher wages improve the human condition? That depends on whether or not you believe that wealth is the measure of good. What trade-offs do people make for wealth? Is a culture strongly immersed in a capitalism/consumerism track better off than a less wealthy one operating slightly more towards the socialist side (e.g. some European nations)? If people worked 50 hours a week on average compared to 40 and increased GDP by a significant amount, would humanity be better off?

With these thoughts as a foundation for my opinions, I personally do not see law, finance, or most corporate functions as beneficial to humanity. I see them as a part of a system (capitalism/consumerism) that has taken a life of its own - become unstoppable, self-sustaining, and no longer guided by people. If we reduce society to the lowest common denominator - the human individual - what is best for this individual?

Is it wealth? Beyond shelter, health, the ability to provide for a family, and pay for the education of his children (assuming the current structure of the educational system for simplicity) - almost everything else is the thoughtless greed for more material goods. There are exceptions to this, but I am trying to keep it general. Why do people crave wealth and things? Humans are social animals, and the glue that holds society and culture together is relativism. In a "society" consisting of one man, wealth is meaningless. In a society consisting of two, the one who has less will enviously strive to surpass his neighbor. In a society of millions, things become significantly more complex, but without relating oneself to others, superfluous wealth becomes meaningless. This attitude is referenced in the some of the earliest recorded texts: for example, the bible ("Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." (Exodus 20:17 KJV)).

On the most fundamental level, occupations that are beneficial to humanity are the arts (writing, for example, to help the human reflect on himself instead of walking blindly through life, visual art or music to lead man to experiences of beauty or intense emotion), health and medicine (to help man survive and live life free of pain), environmental protection (that is, if it ever becomes a movement at a scale that can actually accomplish something - as it is now, probably more optimistic than beneficial), etc.

Jobs whose sole purpose is profit and wealth and the continuation of the capitalistic automaton are meaningless to humanity. Their goal is to create wealth, which is to be used to create more wealth. They are not meaningless to society. Without these jobs society as we know it would break down. It would "regress". A retreat into a culture devoid of consumerism, capitalism, and the social structures that have been built over millennia is unrealistic and naive. Regardless of our beliefs, we can all agree that we have to make do with where we are now as a species. However, despite this implied fatalism, it can't hurt to think about what we have become and what holds meaning for us, and what that implies for the way we live our lives.

On a more absurdist level - for example as described in Camus' The Myth of Sisyphus - nothing is inherently meaningful, but anything can be defined as meaningful by the individual. If we go down the path of absurdism, the question of what occupation is meaningful becomes irrelevant - something that cannot be generalized to more than one individual. That attitude isn't very conducive to this discussion however, although I find it particularly keen and legitimate.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

P.S. As I mentioned above, work for the sake of gaining shelter, sustenance, providing for family, and financing a means to an education is meaningful in itself as it assists in the survival of oneself and one's progeny. This is from an evolutionary perspective the most meaningful type of work - regardless of what it entails, at least on a individual level. My question is targeted at those who can "choose" a career and basic survival is a given.

Works sucks. It's why they pay you for it. Outside of basic survival tasks, any meaning in any job, is arbitrarly applied by those that feel they must find meaning. When it comes to work, there are two types of lucky people IMO.

1) Trust fund babies
2) Those that actually do something they love, that just happens to allow themselves to have financial viability.

I find, #1 is often found in #2

That was pretty deep. Have you tried studying Buddhism? I find I'm much happier when I'm trying to live simply. Unfortunately, that which brings me the most satisfaction seems to intrinsically bring me the least amount of money. Which is unfortunate because, as you mentioned, I need a certain level of income just to survive.

It's about money.

Unfortunately for me, if I were to do what I want to do, I'd have negative income (art).

I'd rather be painting for a living or drawing comics again, but generally enjoy what I do.

I haven't logged on in well over a year, but this question is such a meaningful one to me, that I just had to. First, well done on the original post. You articulated many of the reasons I feel such a sense of disconnectedness with modern society.

I work a reasonably well paying 8-5 job which consumes the majority of my time and energy. I find myself having to try to generate enthusiasm for essentially meaningless things, otherwise I'd likely be overtaken by despair. If I'm honest with myself, aside from paying off debt and the basics of living, I work primarily to afford little luxuries which are themselves little more than distractions from the misery I feel from working.

hmmmm..... a few thoughts. I like what I do, a lot. I am good at it, and very much enjoy being good at my job. it really does give me a lot of pleasure, to be good at my job, and have a good reputation. I do pretty much exactly what I have wanted to do for most of my life, with only a few years thinking that I would do something else. and the perks and the compensation for my work are better than reasonable, not enough to make me rich, but enough to make me happy.

on top of that - I take pride in the fact that my work creates jobs. I sell, and that creates work for others.

and, strangely enough, I take pride in creating wealth for the owners of my company - they have trusted me and made available resources for me to do my job, and I am giving them return on investment at as good at, or hopefully better than expected rates. I like that.

I generally agree that consumerism is out of control, at least in the USA, and its intensity does not seem to vary across socioeconomic groups. I.e. the middle-class in the suburbs get as excited about their flat-panel televisions and Pottery Barn furniture as urban forumites here get about our John Lobbs and M-model bimmers.

The things is, economic growth has made possible so many innovations that improve our lives in substantive rather than just superficial ways. Maybe it just requires a level of thinking I am incapable of, but I cannot imagine how certain inventions such as life-saving drugs and internet technology could have been brought into existance without someone is making a buck off of them.

There need to be incentives to create and distribute on a wide scale. I guess you will always have some altruistic innovation seeking to solve humanity's ills, regardless of monitary compensation, but progress would be greatly slowed. Dont underestimate how many good things have come out of accidents or tangents in other more seemingly frivolous work. When you have the creative powers of a society firing on full cylinders, which would seem to require major incentives, the positive output is going to increase.

I would not be so quick to sell financiers short. As long as we're living in a free-market system, finance professionals will continue to grease the wheels and allow capital to be allocated as efficiently as possible.

You get at questions on a deeper, exestential/spiritual kind of level. I agree that most people spend about zero time reflecting on what it means to be alive (theyre too caught up with the consumeristic distractions of modern life) but I would keep in mind that we do live in a real world. Our existance isn't entirely mind, humans were built to interact with our environment and try to thrive in it. There has to be something very natural about striving to succeed in whatever circumstances we find ourselves born into.

My thoughts on this topic are pretty unpolished, because I have not spent a lot of time reflecting... Thoughtful Op.