J. Gordon Holt grows up

F, as a fellow capitalist, I wholeheartedly support your WSJ posting rampage in CEsspool but have you ever seen a machine that makes cables?

Its not something that you can make on a small scale, cable is cable the only difference is possibly shielding and there is no way a low voltage, low current cable needs to cost more then a couple of bucks a foot. Even ones meant for high frequency.

High cost cables are a sham which I wish I could get into.

Originally Posted by ms244

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AF, as a fellow capitalist, I wholeheartedly support your WSJ posting rampage in CEsspool but have you ever seen a machine that makes cables? Its not something that you can make on a small scale, cable is cable the only difference is possibly shielding and there is no way a low voltage, low current cable needs to cost more then a couple of bucks a foot. Even ones meant for high frequency. High cost cables are a sham which I wish I could get into.
It really depends on the company. Kimber, Cardas and Nordost do in fact make their own wire. There is a good profit margin on cable (Sam Tellig refers to the cable companies as the "wire bandits") but sadly my ears tell me that there are gains from better cable. I'm not out buying mega priced cables but I do use some industry connections to buy good brands on accommodation prices (dealer cost or less). I usually spend around $100-200 per meter pair on interconnects (Kimber Hero and Cardas Neutral and Golden Reference models) and $300-500 per 8 foot run on speaker cable (Kimber 8TC and Cardas Golden Reference). Like everything else in audio, the new Kimber Hero is a tremendous bargain for the performance. The whole key to high end audio is to ignore some of the hype and seek the best bang for the buck components. Another secret is to have an established relationship with a local dealer. I only buy if I can do a home audition for a week. Then I do A/B comparisons with existing cables using recordings I do and am very familiar with. I would also suggest that cable, power, and isolation improvements should be done only when the rest of the components in the system are satisfying.

Originally Posted by MiloX

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Artisan, what characteristics of sound reproduction do your wonder cables affect? Linearity? Tonality? Staging? Imaging?

Not talking parameters, just "characteristics", clearly science is not important to you.

I hear sound differences most in three areas:

1. Amount of forwardness in the soundstage as well as instrument separation.
2. The amount of detail one can hear. Nordost does this very well.
3. Instrument tonality. How close is the sound to that of live instrument. I do a lot of violin and string instruments in my live to two track recordings. The violin has a certain sweetness in sound on the top and many cables/systems don't capture that well.

With cable, good performance is neutrality - letting the music flow through unimpeded to the next component.

'Tonality' implies pitch and key. Timbre is the correct word. Tonality is an oft used word by audiophiles and writers. It is incorrect.

Rocking some super cables right now sent to me by a reader. They will be inexpensive and match well with my system.

As for Gordon. His revisionism is funny.

Originally Posted by audiophilia

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'Tonality' implies pitch and key. Timbre is the correct word. Tonality is an oft used word by audiophiles and writers. It is incorrect.

Yes, timbre was the word I should have used. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

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It really depends on the company. Kimber, Cardas and Nordost do in fact make their own wire.
So they tell you. Youll believe anything so long as it's nicely spoon-fed to you.

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

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I do use some industry connections to buy good brands on accommodation prices (dealer cost or less). I usually spend around $100-200 per meter pair on interconnects (Kimber Hero and Cardas Neutral and Golden Reference models) and $300-500 per 8 foot run on speaker cable (Kimber 8TC and Cardas Golden Reference).
That makes you even more gullible than the sap who falls for an in-store "audition" and on impulse overspends on wire. I can't see spending more than a buck a foot on speaker wire. Something like this wire works as well as anything else and looks better than most. For an 8' run in a proper (three channel front stage) audio system, let's say $24 on wire and maybe $60 on ends, tops. (Decent bananas will be cheaper than Speakons, because there's less to them.) If you're anal about appearance as I am and I suspect most of the people on this forum are by definition, then add a couple bucks for heat shrinking or "cable pants" to clean them up, even though probably nobody will ever look back there.

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

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Like everything else in audio, the new Kimber Hero is a tremendous bargain for the performance. The whole key to high end audio is to ignore some of the hype and seek the best bang for the buck components.
Very little in audio is "tremendous bargain for the performance" by definition. And no wires merit such a phrase unless their marketers pay you to use them. The whole key to "hi-fidelity music reproduction" - which is quite different from the rank idiocy known as "high end audio" - is to focus on stuff that matters sonically (room, speakers, recording, room correction) and ignore the stuff that's sonically irrelevant once a certain minimum standard of performance already available at the commodity level is reached (everything else).

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

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I would also suggest that cable, power, and isolation improvements should be done only when the rest of the components in the system are satisfying.
Because they're not in fact improvements at all. Unless you consider that sometimes wires and racks are visible, so swapping them out can result in an aesthetic improvement. And some people like looking at an extra stupid box that does nothing called a "power conditioner," I suppose.

Originally Posted by audiophilia

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Rocking some super cables right now sent to me by a reader. They will be inexpensive and match well with my system.
By "match well with [your] system" I assume you just mean they have the right terminations to properly connect your gear, i.e. RCA for unbalanced line-level analog signals or coaxial digital, XLR or Euroblock for balanced, Toslink for optical digital, Speakon/bananas/spades for speaker wires. Any other use of the phrase "match well with [your] system" with "cables" would indicate a delusional mental condition. Unless you mean something not sound-related, such as the jackets matching your carpet in color or something.

Originally Posted by audiophilia

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As for Gordon. His revisionism is funny.
Maybe it took him a while to realize that he was wrong, after Carver spanked the Stereophile staff, the Zipser fiasco (where a Miami "high end" dealer couldn't hear the difference in his own hand-selected system between a five-figure "single ended solid state" Pass Labs amplifier and a "mid-fi" Yamaha integrated amp), and the many other incidents of reality exposure in audio that have occurred over the past decade. JGH obviously could hear on some level. For a long time he ran five superb (but ugly and not "audiophile approved") midfield studio monitors, Tannoy System 10 DMT II's, as his home theater mains.

Originally Posted by Sprezzatura2010

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Because they're not in fact improvements at all. Unless you consider that sometimes wires and racks are visible, so swapping them out can result in an aesthetic improvement. And some people like looking at an extra stupid box that does nothing called a "power conditioner," I suppose.

I guess you have never heard Roy Gregory's demonstrations on this at RMAF.

I have no idea who Roy Gregory is. Or I didn't until I looked him up. VP of Marketing for a wire company (Nordost).

I've never seen one of P.T. Barnum's "demonstrations," either.

Originally Posted by Sprezzatura2010

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I have no idea who Roy Gregory is. Or I didn't until I looked him up. VP of Marketing for a wire company (Nordost). I've never seen one of P.T. Barnum's "demonstrations," either.
Roy just joined Nordost this year but at the time he was the publisher/editor of UK magazine HiFi+, a respected high end journal. Roy developed a method for demonstrating incremental improvements of an existing system in the areas of "cable loom" (as the Brits say), AC filtration, and various isolation improvements such as equipment stands, footers, etc. At the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest, he showed a very high quality system, played music clips for sound quality demo, and then progressively added in system refinements such as cable, ac, isolation. The same music clips were played back at the same volume level after each refinement so you could judge for yourself if the refinement added value. I was very impressed as these refinements did in fact greatly improve the sound of the system and the music clips. It was actually quite remarkable how the sound improved when all was finished.

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

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Roy just joined Nordost this year but at the time he was the publisher/editor of UK magazine HiFi+, a respected high end journal.

"Respected high end journal" is an oxymoron.

Hifi+ does not make any attempts to independently verify the performance claims they breathlessly repeat for the gear they "test" (so far as I can tell from their website) and the article I skimmed read like marketing copy.

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

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At the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest, he showed a very high quality system, played music clips for sound quality demo, and then progressively added in system refinements such as cable, ac, isolation. The same music clips were played back at the same volume level after each refinement so you could judge for yourself if the refinement added value.

Wow, you are gullible. That's not even a particularly inventive con.

WTF is this ****!! You're all insane!

Originally Posted by Sprezzatura2010

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Not in the context of domestic audio, if someone approaches it reasonably. Yes, maybe running a 28AWG magnet wire for 30' between a 2kW amp and an 18" subwoofer driver or a pair of Apogee Scintillas is a bad idea. Yes, maybe an RCA or XLR cable needn't be made out of 3/0 welding stock. But for all practical purposes any generic wire with the right ends will serve its purpose just as well as any expensive wire with the right ends. We spend excess money on wires and their dressing (TechFlex, bananas/spades, locking RCAs, and so on) entirely for the aesthetic improvement. Or sometimes because they make things more efficient, such as the comparative ease of swapping out speakers or moving a system when the speaker wires are terminated with Speakon ends or bananas compared to bare wire or spade lugs.

There's nothing wrong with spending money on wires or electronics boxes over and above what is going to sound the same, based on looks or feel or whatever. I do think one should just be honest about it, and not justify his purchase by claiming nonexistent sonic differences.


Then you and I are in complete agreement.

I am not a home system guy. I am a SQ competitor in the 12v space. The environment is harsh both physically and acoustically. It's a fun hobby. And unfortunately, a lot of the home audio snake-oil crap has found its way into our little community of misfits.

Originally Posted by MiloX

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Then you and I are in complete agreement. I am not a home system guy. I am a SQ competitor in the 12v space. The environment is harsh both physically and acoustically. It's a fun hobby. And unfortunately, a lot of the home audio snake-oil crap has found its way into our little community of misfits.
What do you mean by "12v space"? iPod and headphones/headphone amp? Do you believe that all audio cables sound the same?

My friend still doesn't believe me when I tell him higher kbps songs have a higher quality.

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

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What do you mean by "12v space"? iPod and headphones/headphone amp?

Do you believe that all audio cables sound the same?

Sorry... should have been more clear. 12V is jargon we use in the hobby... I am referring to Car Audio.

On your second point- No. I don't believe that all audio cables sound the same... Only the ones that measure the same.